Free bush lessons.

[LuckySports]

I learned something.. will definitely take that into account in the future!

 

[Dimitar]

All credit goes to me for starting the thread. Ty.

 

[Max]

here is actual BR to prove.

This argument is a perfect replica of a scientific debate, which I find rather hilarious

Two sides both convinced of one point of view argue their cases, and then the evidence is presented, rather convincingly too I must add!

I would similarly assume that armour damage is applied only to non-stripped units.

I can confirm your assumption most definitely with the following case. I have enjoyed spells of this round attacking with hooligans and TLs in tandem, a most enjoyable way to increase damage done against the dragon route!

Once the hooligans have fired, they strip armour away from the Dragons. If the TLs then did armour damage to both stripped and non-stripped units alike... there would be NO difference in their kill ratios between pure TLs or a hooligan+TL combo.

Evidence shows the contrary - that armour damage is applied only to non-stripped units - because TLs have an increased kill ratio on dragons with hooligans than without.

Cost for cost comparison of using pure TLs or a mixture of TLs and hooligans:

(Note - No. Dragons defending: 44,871,794,871)

CASE 1

1,000,000 Hooligans attack and disable 232,381 dragons - it takes 4.3 hooligans to disable a dragon.
1,000,000 TLs attack and kill 487,504 dragons - it takes 2.1 TLs to kill a dragon with hooligans.

CASE 2

1,333,333 TLs attack and kill 471,141 dragons, it takes 2.8 TLs to kill a dragon without hooligans.

Conclusions

Cost for cost, against dragons you kill more with fewer TLs by using hooligans. This is only possible because the armour damage is performed only on un-stripped units. If armour damage was performed on every unit, whether stripped or un-stripped, there would be no difference between these two cases in terms of the TL kill ratio.

 

[willymchilybily]

*willy worries about the lack of knowledge people have about the game.

ofc the AD isnt spread and HD can only hit stripped units. AD doesnt count itself up and divide by that number.....think about how it can only possibly work.

1mil rpgs rush rank 1 alliance and attack 100 million CW. yet you still get some kills..... but it takes 2.8 (call it 3) rpgs to kill a cybernetic warrior.... the only possible way it could ever work is if the CW have thier armour pooled, and they then have all the armour damage taken from that pool one cybernetic warrior at a time. and that counts as how many are stripped.

as health damage CAN NOT BE DONE to units still with armour it leaves only the stripped ones to die to HD 9if there is enough HD present). but once again the rpgs HD is low so out of that pool of exposed health damage you may have some units that are stripped but still have health.

BTW. timtadams, and max, AD id think can target stripped and unstripped units alike, it would give similar effect in either case. but if it didnt then layers of HD/AD wouldnt matter. (aka if strikers fired after rpg and only targeted un-stripped units it would be F*king mental, as layers of lethal flak no longer have as great an effect). aka 1mil CW flakked by 2m Dogs hit by rpgs and strikers. 2/3rd rpg strip the dog in one hit no problem. and probably some CW. then striker's AD only targets the remaining unstripped CW?? nah.If that happened you wouldnt get the heavily armoured units survive. you need the pom sweeper to fire after the rpgs so the strikers doesnt target the stripped dogs with its own AD. because AD targets all of the units. and wastes its AD fire power, it take them down one at a time, and doesnt spread it out between all the units present, but it still targets everything present. The only reason health does it how it does is because the game mechanic only allows stripped units to take HD. AD & HD can still be wasted id have thought. it has to be that way to be able to kill.

 

[Max]

AD can still be wasted id have thought.

If the hooligan's AD was wasted, the TLs would get the same ratio on dragons with or without additional armour stripping would they not?

It also suggests that if you use 1m RPGs, 1m Strikers and 2m SAs to kill a Ranger player, you would do no better than using 1m Strikers and 2m SAs without the RPGs in the first place... which doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Polo]

Regarding my post.
health damage can only be done to a unit that has no armour, as willy said. Flakking only flaks armour damage. That way health damage is not wasted by firing on non-stripped units. Instead, the health damage is simply applied direct to stripped units.

also, health damage is indeed only directed at stripped units. both geos and CG have armour (both a lot more than gardeners). If for some reason the geos were stripped, and the CG were not (even though that would never be the case unless you were flakking CG with geos), then yes, 1 million SA would only direct their health damage at the stripped geos. Dont forget, the SA still do some armour damage and can therefore strip some CG before health damage is applied.

here is actual BR to prove.

[middle] 1,000 allied Political Mastermind attacked, distracting 272 hostile staff.
[middle] 1,000 allied Hippy Van attacked, distracting 120 hostile staff.
[middle] 1,000 allied Loudspeaker Protestor shouted in the ears of and distracted 351 hostile staff.
[middle] 34,999,257 hostile Marine attacked, killing 10,961 allied staff.

The loudspeakers must have fired on purely stripped units to distract more than the POMs, given the small number of stripped must have made up a negligible portion of the army. Also, the loudies also do armour damage and this obviously wouldnt be applied to just stripped units. Thus health damage must be applied separate to armour damage.

I would similarly assume that armour damage is applied only to non-stripped units.

That's completely wrong and your BR is irrelevant to what Dimitar was saying.

If you have 10m CGs and RPGs strip 2m of them then 2m SAs fire, the SAs HD will target those 2m (plus the few they also strip) stripped CGs and the rest of the SA firepower will be wasted. Your BR proves this but it isn't what Dimitar was saying.

If you have 10m geos and 10m CGs, RPGs strip 2m CGs and all geos. If 2m SAs then fire, 1m SAs target the CGs and 1m SAs target the geos. Only 2m CGs are stripped though so those 1m SAs can kill a maximum of 2m CG (ignoring whatever they strip themselves). The other 1m SA can kill as many geos as their HD allows as they're completely stripped.

 

[timtadams]

This discussion is bordering on requiring its own thread ("Game mechanics of AD and HD")

Im not sure what youre trying to say Polo. Im completely wrong but my BR proves what ive said?

What i said: HD targets directly stripped units. BR presented as evidence. Then i state that AD obviously cant be applied to only stripped units, so is applied separate to HD, i.e. not at the same time.

Did I misunderstand what Dimi was saying? It may be so as i sometimes find all these hypothetical BRs and explanation a little difficult to follow. And i can be pretty retarded at times.

 

[willymchilybily]

AD can still be wasted id have thought.

If the hooligan's AD was wasted, the TLs would get the same ratio on dragons with or without additional armour stripping would they not?

It also suggests that if you use 1m RPGs, 1m Strikers and 2m SAs to kill a Ranger player, you would do no better than using 1m Strikers and 2m SAs without the RPGs in the first place... which doesn't seem right to me.

i said it completely wrong. to you and to edd in PM lol. hooligans fired first. they stripped. i do see how i was unclear sure. and the TL's could only do more AD to the dragons with armour. yes that is correct to my way of thinking. I was confused for a second

ill try to be more clear:

example 1
hooligans AD fire. and target all the dragons. stripping 1/2 million of those 1000000000billion gazzillion dragons.

hooligans health damage fires. and can only hurt/kill the stripped units. targetting the 1/2 million dragons that are stripped but killing maybe half that 250k stopped (250k left stripped but unstopped)

Tls fire thier AD targets all of the dragons (the pool of dragon armour is taken away from 1 stripped dragon at a time until you have used it all up) . you strip a further 200k dragons. So yes you can only take away the armour that is left, but it still targets them all

you now have 450k stripped dragons. YAY. because you can only do AD to the armour. so yes in this respect you are right. then your tls did health damage to a larger potential group of stripped dragons, and got better ratios because the health damage was not wasted.


Example 2:

your 1million hoolis and 1 million Tl's target not a stupidly large number of a single unit. but 3 million attack dogs and 500k dragons.

your hooligans fire. and 85% of them fire at the pool of dog Armour and strip them All!!! excelent news buddy. maybe they even manage to strip 50k dragons too.

they do some health damage too and maybe even take out 500k dogs.

tls now fire at 2,500k dogs (stripped) and (50k dragons stripped) (450k dragons unstripped)

the Tl's AD targets 2.5/3 on the dogs.(83.3% hit the dogs) and the rest to the dragons. They strip no more dogs....but they still target them. with both AD and HD. and do waste fire power.

and yes they can only take away more AD from the existing dragon Armour pool. but no they dont target only unstripped units. They can still waste thier fire power, on the stripped units. and layers of lethals are still effective, they just do additional AD to the pool of armour.

------
I was confused with the way you presented it, it was like it was only possible to target unstripped units, which it is not. its only possible to do AD to the armour that is left sure. but targetting is unchanged. and the system always goes through and picks it off 1 unit at a time . So if you have 10million dogs with equivalent total armour value of 20million *'s. and you get 2 million Rpgs come and do *****10 million AD. it obviously cant leave every dog 1 star of armour else you would kill nothing. the game will say 100% of the fire power being 10million AD strips 5million dogs. and what ever fires next will do the same. so 2million strikers do another 10million AD. the dog armour pool doesnt suddenly regrow. ofc not. so yes you can only strip futher. until no dogs have any armour and can all be killed. just my visulaisation of the game didnt like your description.

 

[Max]

Glad we finally reached an agreed conclusion to that one willy

I probably confused you more by looking at targetting only one unit type: as Polo has written above include 2 or more unit types and suddenly it behaves differently, because you have to divide the attacking army proportionately amongst the defending unit types.

Hazzah

 

[Dimitar]

I've no idea who I'm agreeing and who I'm arguing with anymore, but this is what I got so far.

A hypothetical BR with 1 attacking and 2 defending unnamed units.

BR goes like this:

1. Attacking units fire. The units are divided into two groups using the ratio between the #1 and #2 defending troops. Each group attempts to armour strip its designated targets. Afterwards each unit attempts to kill the already stripped enemies within the pre-assigned target group. Thus the HD and AD targetting stays the same.

Example (using Polo's previous example):

10m RPG vs 10m CG + 10m Geos

50% RPG AD directed at 10m CG - results in 2m CGs being stripped
50% RPG AD directed at 10m geos - results in 10m geos being stripped

50% RPG HD directed at 2m CGs - irrelevant result
50% RPG HD directed at 10m geos - irrelevant result

AND NOT:

16.6% RPG HD directed at 2m CGs
84.4% RPG HD directed at 10m geos
(which would be the case if the HD targetting was seperate)

 

[dave]

Lesson #10

If you purchase a Punit and then delete and restart, you will have the blueprints for the Punit unlocked (No need to purchase again)

does this work if u want to go a different route to the route you went when orignally purchasing your p-unit. say if u went dragon, restarted and wanted to go puppet. would the puppet units blueprints still be unlocked?

 

[Ogluk]

Lesson #10

If you purchase a Punit and then delete and restart, you will have the blueprints for the Punit unlocked (No need to purchase again)

does this work if u want to go a different route to the route you went when orignally purchasing your p-unit. say if u went dragon, restarted and wanted to go puppet. would the puppet units blueprints still be unlocked?

yup
You'll obviously only get the award for the one you finish the round with though

 

[tobapopalos]

Yes. I started off as puppets last round, deleted, and went SAs for the last few days.

 

[dave]

Lesson #10

If you purchase a Punit and then delete and restart, you will have the blueprints for the Punit unlocked (No need to purchase again)

does this work if u want to go a different route to the route you went when orignally purchasing your p-unit. say if u went dragon, restarted and wanted to go puppet. would the puppet units blueprints still be unlocked?

yup
You'll obviously only get the award for the one you finish the round with though

yeah yeah of course, i just wondered because i want to try bunker/sentry the round after the one starting today, and if its wank i wanna try something different

 

[Dimitar]

damn yochoko stopped posting lessons :/

 

[Yochoko]

i all of a sudden felt like 'intruding' with my useless lessons.

 

[avash]

New Lesson:


To win the round, you must 2vs1 take-out twigleys allie

 

[Dimitar]

Please don't do this in my awesome thread :/

 

[timtadams]

You know Dimi, a great idea would be to update your original post with the lessons spread throughout the thread, as was already mentioned.

Maintain your awesome thread

 

[jamesNchina]

It is an awesome thread, thanks to all who have contributed. A compilation of all the actual 'lessons' without the other crap (like this) would be really nice to see.
Get it done Dimitar.