Ram
Head Gardener
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2008
- Messages
- 462
-
Those wishing to contribute to the game by making suggestions (both small and large) should read the following before doing so.
Bushtarion largely runs completely automatically, and has been designed intentionally to be as self-maintaining as possible, with mechanics and balance considered at a completed point.
Please do not spend large amounts of time coming up with complex suggestions in the hope that they will be read and possibly implemented in the future, unless you just enjoy the discussion, theory-craft, and such.
The most likely changes will be rules-changes, specific number-tweaks to units, techs, and similar sorts of changes, and only if a large community consensus is reached as "proof" that a change would, overall, be an improvement, and are more likely to be done in batches, occassionally, not as a regular thing.
Cyborg Gardener NERF
- Thread starter Twigley
- Start date
Maybe not a temporary advantage against solo Poms, or a few other solo routes. But there are routes which can EASILY kill CG. This suggestion is based purely because you happen to be solo this round, and because one of your pnaps has been landed on by them.
Yea and sarcasm is the best arguement :/
Twigley, great suggestion. /sarcasm
You and Cheese have been powerflakking people for rounds. 25m tractors in GC, 650m flak last round.
Now you guys are solo and suddenly this comes up.
It should be in the gripes section, not over here...
You and Cheese have been powerflakking people for rounds. 25m tractors in GC, 650m flak last round.
Now you guys are solo and suddenly this comes up.
It should be in the gripes section, not over here...
Yes it is.
And?
I see a problem and i'm suggesting a change and wondering what others think about it.
What's your point - we all already know this?
Or are you just posting for the sake of it?
It's a suggestion and i wanted to know what people thought on it.
I thought people could have a reasoned discussion like Iamsmart, Cheese and myself were having but you just came in wtih a point saying it was ridiculous, made a smart comment and that was it.
What's your problem exactly?
When two entire branches have no counter whatsoever to a unit that outflaks them - there is a problem.
This isn't anything like "ninja on striker" or "RPG on SA" discussion as you can change your ratios to adjust to that.
There is no way you can adjust ratios with 2 entire branches against 1 unit that comes out straight away.
For me that means there is a problem.
My problem is what you allready quoted.
Also added to that is my opinion a few posts before that. People are giving up pa's or nano/stuns to get a flak advantage. It is a choice people can and do make at this time. Nerving the cg's will make another branch die! Kinda like the extremist branch.
Cg's have no ranged let till cw's, no good flak killers till td's. And that should be enough to pay for having this flak advantage.
Also added to that is my opinion a few posts before that. People are giving up pa's or nano/stuns to get a flak advantage. It is a choice people can and do make at this time. Nerving the cg's will make another branch die! Kinda like the extremist branch.
Cg's have no ranged let till cw's, no good flak killers till td's. And that should be enough to pay for having this flak advantage.
Im saying if you weaken CG too much, by lets saying increasing thier price by a massive amount, then you will completely kill an already under used route. The units themselves are indeed powerful against poms. Which is why you use other routes to kill them.
There is the possibility of increasing their price, but they will still be used to flak solo poms. So this hardly solves the problem. And if you increase their price massively then you may aswell remove the route from the game imo.
There is the possibility of increasing their price, but they will still be used to flak solo poms. So this hardly solves the problem. And if you increase their price massively then you may aswell remove the route from the game imo.
willymchilybily
Landscape Designer
i'm afraid i'd have to to be very reserved with the suggestion and lean to being against it. Even though it could be tweaked and implimented fine. and may even be made to be okay. but at the end of the day
and they should still be able to out flak a pom of reasonable relative size. as pom hits Health flak not armour flak predominantly. I think they should be able to beat a pom. so no mattter how its tweaked all that changes is how big a pom and what AR.
and also that branch of the robo route has little to no chance of holdin land (solo obv) without c/w so where as you have stunbots sweeping. or autos getting nice kills and helping reduce flack. the shield route is easy to flak. and so expensive to develop. its only advantage is the unit's ability to help grab land quickly. And if you tweak it poorly or brashly it will be horrid to play.
also i think its one of those things, unless a pom gets hypno's he cant stop a CG in the same way a sorc cant stop a ranger without dragons, a striker cant stop a larger sa/ass without marines. its how it is and how it should be...just my opinion.
but if you could post some relative sizes, i mean if the guy is attacking at 100% and landing maybe a tweak to bring it down to 70% if hes able to land when you have 80% ar for example. yeah overpowered. but you havent provided those without the experience of CG vs pom any real grounds to make a good judgement on this topic. not even your land fat's nothing. how do we not know you're no actually 50% land fat poms. LOL. im just saying more facts would help people make a clearer judgement as i myself have no experience and i doubt many do.
and they should still be able to out flak a pom of reasonable relative size. as pom hits Health flak not armour flak predominantly. I think they should be able to beat a pom. so no mattter how its tweaked all that changes is how big a pom and what AR.
and also that branch of the robo route has little to no chance of holdin land (solo obv) without c/w so where as you have stunbots sweeping. or autos getting nice kills and helping reduce flack. the shield route is easy to flak. and so expensive to develop. its only advantage is the unit's ability to help grab land quickly. And if you tweak it poorly or brashly it will be horrid to play.
also i think its one of those things, unless a pom gets hypno's he cant stop a CG in the same way a sorc cant stop a ranger without dragons, a striker cant stop a larger sa/ass without marines. its how it is and how it should be...just my opinion.
but if you could post some relative sizes, i mean if the guy is attacking at 100% and landing maybe a tweak to bring it down to 70% if hes able to land when you have 80% ar for example. yeah overpowered. but you havent provided those without the experience of CG vs pom any real grounds to make a good judgement on this topic. not even your land fat's nothing. how do we not know you're no actually 50% land fat poms. LOL. im just saying more facts would help people make a clearer judgement as i myself have no experience and i doubt many do.
More facts?
Doesn't matter how land fat you are, the relative scores at all - that's irrelevent compeltely.
2 entire tech trees (And a fair few other branches) are unable to buy a single unit that can counter 1 unit that costs bugger all and comes out straight away.
That's a problem.
You can adjust ratios to combat other units, but with this one there is no units that can counter it.
Even if you gave a pom or a spec ops player double the funds of a CG player and could spend them anyway they want on any unit in that branch - the CG lands every single time. Sins get 1:1 and are 12 times the price, SA get 1:1 and are 11 times the price. You'd of thought sleepys would be able to stop CG? No they get 1:2 aswell and are 3 times the price.
I think the only reason we havnt had many complaints in the past is because people hardly use the route and especially people don't use the route when on top normally. This doesn't excuse the fact that there is an imbalance.
Doesn't matter how land fat you are, the relative scores at all - that's irrelevent compeltely.
2 entire tech trees (And a fair few other branches) are unable to buy a single unit that can counter 1 unit that costs bugger all and comes out straight away.
That's a problem.
You can adjust ratios to combat other units, but with this one there is no units that can counter it.
Even if you gave a pom or a spec ops player double the funds of a CG player and could spend them anyway they want on any unit in that branch - the CG lands every single time. Sins get 1:1 and are 12 times the price, SA get 1:1 and are 11 times the price. You'd of thought sleepys would be able to stop CG? No they get 1:2 aswell and are 3 times the price.
I think the only reason we havnt had many complaints in the past is because people hardly use the route and especially people don't use the route when on top normally. This doesn't excuse the fact that there is an imbalance.
I said this 3 rounds ago, and then all I got to hear is..
Get over it, you ain't got the right units..
There was just a handful of people who actually agreed with me on the CG's being too much armour, or too cheap..
http://www.bushtarion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3479&page=2
Get over it, you ain't got the right units..
There was just a handful of people who actually agreed with me on the CG's being too much armour, or too cheap..
http://www.bushtarion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3479&page=2
Signer
Pruner
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2007
- Messages
- 58
They add something to the game and are a challenge to defend against. If you are a solo PoM, you need naps who can counter this inc.
However, in their current state I believe they could become a major irritant/problem to the playerbase if more people decided to use this route after seeing how effective they can be at land grabbing. In isolated incidences like this I see no problem, but I also wouldn't be against a small price increase.
What my main concern with the CG unit is if I put myself in the shoes of a new player who uses the manual for guidance.
Lets say I was a solo SO player; SGT (stats * ** **** **) can get 1:12 on a normal gardener (stats * *) and 1:0.5 on a cyborg gardener (stats * *). Now I know the idea is that the cyborgs have hidden armor - however this difference in ratios is incredibly extreme. As a new player, I would see NO justification for this as SGT do some armor damage, I'd like to see Cyborgs have stats (* **) and I see no harm in that change.
However, in their current state I believe they could become a major irritant/problem to the playerbase if more people decided to use this route after seeing how effective they can be at land grabbing. In isolated incidences like this I see no problem, but I also wouldn't be against a small price increase.
What my main concern with the CG unit is if I put myself in the shoes of a new player who uses the manual for guidance.
Lets say I was a solo SO player; SGT (stats * ** **** **) can get 1:12 on a normal gardener (stats * *) and 1:0.5 on a cyborg gardener (stats * *). Now I know the idea is that the cyborgs have hidden armor - however this difference in ratios is incredibly extreme. As a new player, I would see NO justification for this as SGT do some armor damage, I'd like to see Cyborgs have stats (* **) and I see no harm in that change.
Dax
Hydroponics Developer
Isn't that why you lose a unit that compares with Autos or Stun Droids and the only LT firing of Shields? I go Shields for CG, and Shields are just a bonus.
I'd go Nanos if I wanted wtfpwn LET flak. Simple.
Dax
Hydroponics Developer
Also, may I add; CG allowed me to get the highest current land steal in one tick, on Alchemist {okay, second biggest now Changer, fu}. They serve a singular purpose; To keep your path to CW a much faster one. Other tech trees get helpful units to preserve their land such as the Nanobot & Stun Droid, and Autos and PA to jointly keep land safe from LET/INN trying to pinch it.
A bit less whining might be the objective decision. I do agree with Signer's idea of making the armour of CG a bit more prevalent, though.
A bit less whining might be the objective decision. I do agree with Signer's idea of making the armour of CG a bit more prevalent, though.
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/facepalm.
Who is whining?
I nearly took your post seriously untill i read this part.
You can adjust your ratio to counter nano. You can't with CG with a hell of alot of branches. Do you not get this?
The first 7 days (Less than 10% of a round) where CG are probally slightly acceptable is not an excuse for them to be overepowered for the next 69 days (More than 90% of a round)
Dax
Hydroponics Developer
I put that in to irritate people, it's funny you pick it up with the phrase 'I troll you' in your sig, though.
And my argument was, that their attacking power is to outweigh the route's appalling defensive abilities on their path to CW tech. CG regain the land they will obviously be losing on the way to their first useful LET unit.
The route still isn't top banana later in the round either - I just play it alot because I enjoy thinking of new ideas each round for implementing it.
Dax
Hydroponics Developer
The route is extremely hard to bounty hunt with. There are obviously other routes like this - But Shields suffer a fair bit. I don't bother with making money, I just enjoy crushing people - But I think that is a fair statement.
I will think of something else to say after I've eaten.
Btw, my comment before was not intending to be a flame, by any means. It looks worse than it was meant to.