BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

[Mattheus]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

Bikers you say? Yeah I think we've crossed paths before...

Had Killed:

Gardener 1,638,130,008
Political Mastermind 407,578,372
Protestor Guru 349,347,841
Hypnotist 34,880,262
News Van 12,152,681

Being solo poms rock
Take the bad with the good etc

 

[Alcibiades]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

To address your topic derived response: When i was saying the comparison is ridiculous i simply meant that if you had read any of my other Biker gripes threads you would see that i am in no way, shape or form, opposed to POMs having an Anti-unit. Apart from the sheer sensibility of having a counter unit, that's simply the way bushtarion is designed. That being said, as toby and I and multiple other people have pointed out to the blindness of your repetitive answers, bikers are the (I'll put this in Capital Letters and Bold it so you can see it, remember it, and realize that it's an important point) ONLY SINGLE UNIT IN THIS GAME WHICH CAN DO DAMAGE WITH IMPUNITY.

Impunity: Definition courtesy of Dictionary.com

impunity
1532, from L. impunitatem (nom. impunitas) "freedom from punishment, omission of punishment," from impunis "unpunished, without punishment," from in- "not" + poena "punishment."

That being said, I like toby's idea. Let bikers fire but making them virtually immune to protestor units. (Will require some tweaking of course but that's the general idea).

F0xx, i'm not the kind of player who expects my route to be all powerful, but i certainly do expect that in every fight there should be at least a chance of both players having a chance of fighting back. No other unit is as talented as POM at stealing land and whoring land, but that being said, it still remains an utterly unfair advantage to enemies if all you require are a few mill bikers to cause tremendous unreturnable damage to a POM player. That is how players rounds are ruined.... and we all know that with a shrinking playerbase we really shouldn't be chasing away players.

Pardon my 'tongue in cheek' responses and the sarcasm to which i am prone, but i'm sick and tired of .... well, let's leave it at an apology before i stick my foot too much further into my mouth.

 

[Steve_God]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

Solution:
1) Get Hypnos
2) Get 100 mil of them (or whatever number is needed for that point in the round...)
3) Send out all your prots at the last second and steal every one of them

Easy as pie

As I said, there needs to be some possible defence against bikers if you're not online. An alliance is pretty much powerless against a biker rush if they can't get the target online. So you have 17 ally mates who can't do a single thing to help you. No other route has that problem. And besides, not everyone can get hypnos.

Again, simple solution:
1) Give alliance members your mobile number
2) Ensure you have night cover for while you're not online
3) Be a light sleeper with your computer within reach of your bed

Failing that, don't go PoMs without expecting to take the odd biker hits here and there

 

[tobapopalos]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

Again, simple solution:
1) Give alliance members your mobile number
2) Ensure you have night cover for while you're not online
3) Be a light sleeper with your computer within reach of your bed

Failing that, don't go PoMs without expecting to take the odd biker hits here and there

You think that's a simple solution? That is a life-altering solution that requires some major commitment. It's ridiculous to assume that people can be contactable 24/7.

And even if I have night cover, what good are they going to be against a biker rush? Oh, they can send gargoyles...which won't fire...or they can send jeeps...which won't fire. Great idea. There's nothing that you can send to defend a biker rush.

The same could be said about jeeps when they were eta 1 and there was no way for defence, but they still got changed. Why? Because it was literally impossible to defend against, just like a biker rush.

Your arguments reek of the "deal with it" mentality which is rife in bushtarion. Why shouldn't PoMs have a chance to defend themselves against bikers? It simply isn't fair that a thug can send an eta 3 attack on a PoM and be guaranteed no losses (as long as the PoM is offline).

And before anybody starts accusing me of "you only want what's best for you", that's crap. I'm much more likely to be playing thugs in the future than PoMs.

 

[Alcibiades]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

Failing that, don't go PoMs without expecting to take the odd biker hits here and there

Toby more or less hit the nail on the head with his response so i'll refer you to his post without further ado.

On that note of the quoted section of your post: It's not really the 'odd biker hit' i'm talking about. Irritating tho that is i'm more than prepared to deal with it. It's the continued success of bikers against POMs without any possibly retaliation save calling the POM player and having them come online and send out. Wait wait, let me repeat that because it sounds vaguely important. The ONLY possible solution to having biker inc is to call the POM online.

Just to drill this into your heads once more in the hopes that the blind responders to this thread will actually read something both toby and i have posted.... "The ONLY possible solution to biker incoming is to call the POM online to have them send out..."

Must I really repeat myself for the 3rd, fourth or fifth time? Or has the truth of the situation finally sunk into those stubborn hold outs?!

Mattheus once accused me of being long winded and repetitive, and whilst he's not entirely wrong, some people deserve and apparently require repetition to have the simplest truths blasted into their heads.

 

[Hobbezak]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

Failing that, don't go PoMs without expecting to take the odd biker hits here and there

Just to drill this into your heads once more in the hopes that the blind responders to this thread will actually read something both toby and i have posted.... "The ONLY possible solution to biker incoming is to call the POM online to have them send out..."

Or you could buy 0 poms, that would do the trick too. :O

 

[Alcibiades]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

Failing that, don't go PoMs without expecting to take the odd biker hits here and there

Just to drill this into your heads once more in the hopes that the blind responders to this thread will actually read something both toby and i have posted.... "The ONLY possible solution to biker incoming is to call the POM online to have them send out..."

Or you could buy 0 poms, that would do the trick too. :O

OMFG you're a genius.

A Belgian Genius... i'm... so... no. Wait.. here it comes....!

HEYOOOOO Hobbezak is a Canadian in disguise!

 

[Max]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

I believe that bikers only do 50% armour and health to Machine / Vehicles... does the advantage of flakking with HVs not outweight the POM losses? I haven't played the route in a while so I am not sure if it makes a considerable difference or not.

 

[Alcibiades]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

Not as much as they should considering you can't ever stop biker attacks Max.

Usually, in my experience, if you get biker raped you just get left with some of your HVs, depending how badly you got hit. They don't really protect the rest of your troops, they just tend to survive a little better than everything else...

 

[Steve_God]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

...You think that's a simple solution? That is a life-altering solution that requires some major commitment. It's ridiculous to assume that people can be contactable 24/7...

It is a simple solution, and its one that winning alliances have to consider, and several people actually do (or try to at least).

...And even if I have night cover, what good are they going to be against a biker rush?...

They ring you/wake you up to get online, and you send out at the last second, and steal all their bikers with Hypnos. Again, simple.

...The same could be said about jeeps when they were eta 1 and there was no way for defence, but they still got changed. Why? Because it was literally impossible to defend against, just like a biker rush...

With bikers/vs Prot there is the one 'way out' as it were from death, and to do well out of it, and that's to send out while keeping Hypnos at home. And don't forget, for it to be a proper 'rush' they'd have to be tiny in comparison to your own size.
With jeeps, your enemies, who could be more than twice your own size, could send at the end of eta 1, (effectively at attacking for 3), with no chance of defence from others, at least with biker rushes, if they are small enough to get -2 eta, then they'll be tiny in comparison to you and any damage done won't be hugely substantial.

...Your arguments reek of the "deal with it" mentality which is rife in bushtarion. Why shouldn't PoMs have a chance to defend themselves against bikers? It simply isn't fair that a thug can send an eta 3 attack on a PoM and be guaranteed no losses (as long as the PoM is offline)...

That's because I've played PoM before and know how amazingly overpowering it can be when played properly. The ONLY enemy in the whole game that can do any potential damage (unless a mass attack ofc) is from the biker unit, 1 unit out of a LOT isn't that many to be worried about.

The game is about balance, and making the most of your routes advantages while avoiding situations where your route is at a weakness. Simple as.

Must I really repeat myself for the 3rd, fourth or fifth time? Or has the truth of the situation finally sunk into those stubborn hold outs?!

This stubborn hold out is one that played PoM several rounds ago, that floated around the top 15 in valuation until 2 weeks before the end, and also finished the round in the top 10 effectiveness, and got destroyed by people who were pi**ed off with me attacking them with masses of PoMs, and them not standing a chance to keep their land, they restarted as thugs, and bought nothing but bikers until they took me (and other PoM alliance members) down.
I KNOW how good they can be, but considering I'd gone the whole round untouched before that point, I couldn't complain.

Not as much as they should considering you can't ever stop biker attacks Max.

Usually, in my experience, if you get biker raped you just get left with some of your HVs, depending how badly you got hit. They don't really protect the rest of your troops, they just tend to survive a little better than everything else...

The more Hippy Vans you have the better to minimise losses, although you need to be spending a LOT on them.

 

[tobapopalos]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

Well, to start with, it isn't just bikers that can kill PoMs. You have f-117s, marines, sorcs and dragons to worry about as well. They can all put a hefty dent in your troops.

And while you might think that giving out your personal details and agreeing to be woken up at any hour is not a committment, I beg to differ. I fell asleep a few times at work because I'd been woken up in the middle of the night for defence a few rounds ago. I was lucky to not be fired at the time.

Secondly, your plan requires you to have hypnos. That is a big jump, considering PoMs are one of those routes where the p-unit is not considered necessary. Also, if the attacker sends a few PBs along then your hypnos will just die.

And this game is about balance. You are right there. And what is balanced about a unit that can destroy a route with absolutely no risk? PoMs are great at stealing land and defending, and the flip side of that is that it can't kill. That is balance enough.

 

[Steve_God]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

Well, to start with, it isn't just bikers that can kill PoMs. You have f-117s, marines, sorcs and dragons to worry about as well. They can all put a hefty dent in your troops.

F-117 - True, but with an eta that big, hardly anyone uses them other than for defence, and flak will take a large amount of the damage if you've got plenty.
Marines - only if they've got LOTS of other units to protect them with their high init, and half of their firepower doesn't even target prots.
Sorcerers - more likely to do damage than Marines, but still very few will make it past enough PoMs to do any major damage unless they're hitting at very low % of their valuation.
Dragons - better example, can do damage in numbers, however they're double the cost of PoMs.

And while you might think that giving out your personal details and agreeing to be woken up at any hour is not a committment, I beg to differ. I fell asleep a few times at work because I'd been woken up in the middle of the night for defence a few rounds ago. I was lucky to not be fired at the time.

Secondly, your plan requires you to have hypnos. That is a big jump, considering PoMs are one of those routes where the p-unit is not considered necessary. Also, if the attacker sends a few PBs along then your hypnos will just die.

Oh... I accept its a very big commitment, and its not for everyone, but that's my whole point with the PoM route:
Commitment = Success

And this game is about balance. You are right there. And what is balanced about a unit that can destroy a route with absolutely no risk?

There is risk... the risk that the PoM player they're attacking may be able to send out at the last minute and risk many defenders killing ALL their bikers (as they're easy to kill), the risk that having too many bikers will leave them vulnerable being an easy target to every single other route, and the risk of bribing with hypnos as I previously mentioned...

PoMs are great at stealing land and defending, and the flip side of that is that it can't kill. That is balance enough.

So basically you want a route that is great a stealing land, and defending everyone, but can't die? Very fair on the other routes
Oh... did I mention I want T-Rex's to have an eta of 1 and be invulnerable for range and middle ticks? :lol:

 

[tobapopalos]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

No. It gets killed by sorcs, dragons, marines, bikers and f-117s as I already said. And if you get bashed, pretty much any route can kill you. And people don't seem to mind bashing PoMs. All I'm asking is that bikers get moved to firing after PoMs and have their armour increased against PoMs, so it takes a bit more skill to biker rush someone. At the moment any noob with a few bikers can waste a PoM.

 

[Garrett]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

did I mention I want T-Rex's to have an eta of 1 and be invulnerable for range and middle ticks? :lol:

Dude, where have you been? T-Rex's have this already. It's time POM's got some due.

 

[No-Dachi]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

No. It gets killed by sorcs, dragons, marines, bikers and f-117s as I already said. And if you get bashed, pretty much any route can kill you. And people don't seem to mind bashing PoMs. All I'm asking is that bikers get moved to firing after PoMs and have their armour increased against PoMs, so it takes a bit more skill to biker rush someone. At the moment any noob with a few bikers can waste a PoM.

I honestly cannot find any counter argument to this. The only reason to keep the current stats is to allow rushing offline prots without any danger. I realize that Steve probably loves this tactic (along with the rest of the people arguing against this change), but we are trying to make this game less about rushing/pussying, and more about wars and full scale battles.

I've yet to see one good argument against this change.

 

[saint1d]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

Solution:
1) Get Hypnos
2) Get 100 mil of them (or whatever number is needed for that point in the round...)
3) Send out all your prots at the last second and steal every one of them

Easy as pie

24/7 activity FTL

 

[Souls]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

No. It gets killed by sorcs, dragons, marines, bikers and f-117s as I already said. And if you get bashed, pretty much any route can kill you. And people don't seem to mind bashing PoMs. All I'm asking is that bikers get moved to firing after PoMs and have their armour increased against PoMs, so it takes a bit more skill to biker rush someone. At the moment any noob with a few bikers can waste a PoM.

I honestly cannot find any counter argument to this. The only reason to keep the current stats is to allow rushing offline prots without any danger. I realize that Steve probably loves this tactic (along with the rest of the people arguing against this change), but we are trying to make this game less about rushing/pussying, and more about wars and full scale battles.

I've yet to see one good argument against this change.

souls is a n00b

 

[Yeadon]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

As Steve_God said,

Be active enough to be able to send out and bribe them with Hypno's. Or take the damage on the chin

 

[Steve_God]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

I realize that Steve probably loves this tactic (along with the rest of the people arguing against this change),

Just to clarify; I hate the tactic... I'd love PoMs to be stronger against Bikers!
However, I realise how over-powered that would make the PoM route if it was ever considered.

 

[Alcibiades]

Re: BIKERS BIKERS BIKERS

As Steve_God said,

Be active enough to be able to send out and bribe them with Hypno's. Or take the damage on the chin

/me sighs

Another mindless zombie of the CAN'T be arsed to read what we've posted. Oh well. Let's say you're active 24/7, and your ally (for example) gets incoming, a large wave with a few masses thrown between them. I guess I don't need to remind anyone how invaluable a POM can be in that situation, last ticking with gurus, using POMs to block etc etc. Everyone knows how it's done (at least those reading this thread). Now, POMs + other assorted NLDs can be boosted to eta 3 with the alliance defensive modifier, let's say you have an industrious and 'clever' enemy, they can simply get any little ******* with a few mill bikers to piggy on their attacks and thusly, the POM defence is null and void, completely, without being able to fight back. I'm 100% aware of the route, counter route mentality of bushtarion, but this is the only example i can think of that has no counter. Bikers have no counter. They are the counter to POMs, but they themselves cannot be stopped. Should we bother to analyse the fairness of that? No let's blindly assume everyone can buy Hypnos and can be active enough to send out. Not that those are acceptable solutions in any way but... well, you do try awfully hard i know. But you guys once again seem to have missed the point, even an active POM can be totally removed from the equation by a few little guys with bikers.

[quote="No-Dachi":2b9vnxy8]I realize that Steve probably loves this tactic (along with the rest of the people arguing against this change),

Just to clarify; I hate the tactic... I'd love PoMs to be stronger against Bikers!
However, I realise how over-powered that would make the PoM route if it was ever considered.[/quote:2b9vnxy8]


So what's wrong with the suggestion to make Bikers just about immune to Prots (other than Prot Leaders for example) and have bikers fire after POM giving your ally or pnap the chance, however small and unlikely, of killing some bikers and helping alleviate the damage. That wouldn't make POMs wildly overpowered, and it would certainly resolve my main issue with bikers. That being the unstoppable nature of their attack.