Read if you like...
DA no it means I dont have reason to discuss with any of you mods of anything that has happend on forums over IRC. It doesnt change anything, you only do so cause it is place where you can say what ever you like without being afraid of forum rules. If you want to discuss with me you can use forum PMs. Which are directly tied to your behaviour in those PMs. As on forums you must act as forum mod, same way as you must act on #bushtarion as irc OP. In IRC PM you can say what ever you like and I dont want to have any kind of conversations of real matters in such place.
Also I had not done anything wrong, I knew what your points were and I am sure you knew mine so you didnt have anything to give. Your sole reason to PM me was to drive your own cause, not to do anything offical towards matters. So why should I be tied to unpleasant unoffical conversation with person who I couldnt cba less at that moment? Specially when you just had deleted my post from forums which another mod had approved. This mod nicely contacted me and asked me to change my wordings so I wouldnt be offencive, I did and he said its ok for him now.
Anyways once again after taking it all off topic(even its spam forum) by so many people who have not done anything else but flamed/trolled... I shall get to this log.
[04:53pm] <@[R]Martin> BlackWolf - Azzer is able to see everything the Mods do, PLEASE raise any issues with him direct
[04:55pm] <BlackWolf> [R]Martin: Azzer has shown what kind of people he picked to be his staff. Even after all complaints and all promises he made only 1 has been changed and it was HG due issues between her and Azzer. Not cause she would have done bad job. So you really think I trust Azzer to do anything to anything? Rofl... I just enjoy to see how hes stuck sooner or later to situation where he must act even he ohh so loves his elitistic staff group.
[04:55pm] <Twigley^> He sacked both HG and Inferno
[04:55pm] <Twigley^> I quit being staff cos they where staff
[04:55pm] <Twigley^> Now they are gone
[04:55pm] <Twigley^> \o/
[04:56pm] <@DA> BW, what you've just said doesnt change the fact that that is the proceedure, Got a problem? Visit Azzer. Emo outbursts on the forums will simply be removed :/
[04:56pm] <BlackWolf> go apply and fast I am sure with your past actions you will be picked for sure.
[04:57pm] <@DA> procedure*
[04:57pm] <BlackWolf> So? Have I complained of them being removed?
[04:57pm] <Twigley^> BW i wouldnt want to be again
[04:57pm] <Twigley^> I think Azzer does a **** job picking staff
[04:57pm] <Twigley^> Said it plenty of times
[04:57pm] <@[R]Martin> It's up to you if you trust Azzer to do anything, but do you feel publically arguing against decisions to be more productive? I also do not see the relevance of an 'elitist staff group'?
[04:58pm] <@[R]Martin> I know we spoke in PM, and I am not going to contradict our conversation in there but I am intrigued as to your answers in response to your comments a few minutes ago
[04:59pm] <BlackWolf> [R]Martin: Yes I do feel it to be more productive. Thats my opinion and we dont need to share it as long as I believe to it. What goes about elitistic well Weebles actions explains it, when ever modding turend from after someone has posted acting with rules towards what was posted to mass decisions based on opinions... well it turns mods to be elitistic group not group that has their job and place.
[05:00pm] <@[R]Martin> Ok, so what you are contesting is that once people (generally speaking) become staff members, they then become above their status? Which you feel should not be the case?
[05:00pm] <BlackWolf> [R]Martin: I mailed azzer and gave you thumbs up of your actions as mod after ou convo.
[05:00pm] <@[R]Martin> Thank you
[05:03pm] <BlackWolf> I dont know when they turned from staff members to what ever they are now, but it really did happen. If they would be "workers"/mods as they to my understanding were selected for they wouldnt conversate of decisions as there shouldnt be any reasons. If something is done against rules they have simple instructions to follow as well as they have clear instructions what is breaking rules and whats not. I dont mean them to be robots, but to me they seem now to decide to do things which is expressing more of their selfish opinions than what is following rules.
[05:03pm] <BlackWolf> As they have power over others on forums it makes them elitistic group. As others cant compete with them, due their power.
[05:04pm] <@DA> so anyone with power is elitist by default?
[05:04pm] <BlackWolf> No
[05:04pm] <BlackWolf> Where I said so?
[05:04pm] <@DA> [15:03] <BlackWolf> As they have power over others on forums it makes them elitistic group. As others cant compete with them, due their power.
[05:04pm] <@DA> 30 seconds ago
[05:04pm] <@DA> o.o
[05:04pm] <BlackWolf> In continue to last message
[05:04pm] <BlackWolf> Not as separate sentence, please dont try to push my sentences out of their context.
[05:05pm] <@DA> um
[05:05pm] <@DA> Ok
[05:05pm] <BlackWolf> If you mods would only use your power to do neutrally things, edit, delete etc. it wouldnt be elitistic group, but when ever it turned from being work to using your powers to drive your personal opinions it turned you to be elitistic group.
[05:07pm] <@[R]Martin> and what decides whether an edit, delete is neutral, as you are contesting people deleting your posts as being un-neutral?
[05:07pm] <@[R]Martin> It's difficult to Moderate things seamlessly due to us all being other sides of the world or countries
[05:08pm] <BlackWolf> As I said if there is something wrong with anything I have done during this time. Then actions should have been taken immediatedly. What turned it to be un-neutral was it continuing 4 pages with super mod and then getting warned by WE not by Weeble. Hours after it all started. Then continuing on other thread and then getting that locked but only after this we group or part of it got to say their last word.
[05:09pm] <@[R]Martin> So your general griping above is actually in reference to a specific event?
[05:10pm] <BlackWolf> You see this was turned from me breaking rules to group acting on some section of forums where I dont have access to deciding what to do with me. As such actions were not based on if I broke rules or not, but to opinions of multiple persons who are above me in power.
[[05:10pm] <@DA> Yeah, its called teamwork
[05:10pm] <@DA> Helps us make better decisions
[05:10pm] <@DA> Neutral decisions, as you'd put it
[05:10pm] <BlackWolf> No it makes you elitistic group which doesnt act based on rules but to your personal opinions!
[05:11pm] <@[R]Martin> You feel that Mods discussing the best ways to act in private is actually teaming against you? It allows us to seek opinions in order to act as dilligently as possible
[05:11pm] <@DA> BW if we don't make a decision based on an opinion what do we base it on? We have to make judgements, they tend to rely on opinion a fair bit o.o
[05:11pm] <@DA> Aye Martin
[05:11pm] <@[R]Martin> There are conversations in there of Mods discussing flaws in other Mod's actions, it's not where we match stories so we can bully people
[05:11pm] <BlackWolf> If someone breaks rules there shouldnt be any need to discuss, things should be simply out of line or not.
[05:11pm] <@DA> A lot of issues are borderline
[05:12pm] <@DA> and need input from others to make a decision
[05:12pm] <BlackWolf> Those issues you people can decide after you have acted, not before.
[05:12pm] <@[R]Martin> Indeed BlackWolf, but what we want to do is use them more as guidelines as there are too many grey areas
[05:12pm] <@DA> Aye, grey everywhere
[05:13pm] <@DA> BW, we like to make the right decision first time around, and discussing it with other mods is a very good way of ensuring this happens
[05:13pm] <@DA> Which is why, tbh, some moderation decisions take place a number of hours after the problem, even if a mod picks it up
[05:14pm] <BlackWolf> I have not said or I dont think that you are robots, you do mistakes too but you should learn from mistakes. This is not first time your side made mistake there has been numerous of occasions where you mods have let things continue way too long and then without a word you have acted and when asked why you have gone circles around your reasoning and specially tried to say "if you have problems contact Azzer" Well I dont care to post Azzer anymore I did so multiple times and nothing happend so here we are now.
[05:15pm] <BlackWolf> I still say no matter how you put it when EVER you decide what to do in group instead of acting only by rules, even you use your own personal closening to situation you are not mods anymore, you are simply elitistic group with power over others. As you are not following rules anymore at that point you are following your and other people of that groups personal opinions.
[05:16pm] <@[R]Martin> Yes, you're right there
[05:17pm] <@[R]Martin> but that is the same in many roles, in the real world and over the internet
[05:17pm] <@[R]Martin> You being a sports referee is a prime example of it
[05:20pm] <antisback> BW what they are saying is they ask each others opinions to get a more objective decision
[05:20pm] <antisback> so its more of a general conscencus than one persons' descicion
[05:26pm] <BlackWolf> [R]Martin: thats not exactly true, specially when I am sports referee. When ever I judge some game with someone else we make our individual decisions. We dont always agree with each others but NEVER we would act against that other person. We are in charge together and we follow the decision other took. When ever we discuss we may ask why you did something but we dont disagree or change others judgements afterwards.
[05:27pm] <BlackWolf> As that is one and only way to ensure it all is judged by rules not by opinions.
[05:27pm] <@[R]Martin> Indeed, and that's impossible to do for us, due to it not all being in real time, as not everyone is at their computer at once
[05:27pm] <@[R]Martin> but generally it is what we aim to do
[05:28pm] <BlackWolf> Yes ofc we talk afterwards what we did and why, but when ever the situation is at hand we act by our own decision and opinion. We may be wrong but we do it by our own judgement not by opinions of multiple persons.
[05:28pm] <@[R]Martin> Problem is, if we do make the wrong decision, certain individuals then pick it appart and continually bring it up
[05:29pm] <@[R]Martin> So either way, we are the bad guys
[05:29pm] <BlackWolf> No you dont thats what I have been telling all the time. You are not acting based on rules and judging by those rules. You obviously are acting based on discussion which is not following rules but combining opinions. And when ever there are opinions involved it always means rules are left on back ground and opinions are put forth.
[05:30pm] <antisback> BW the forum rules are far more subjective than sports rules - Give me a strict definition of spam that does not involve someones opinion
[05:31pm] <@[R]Martin> Discussion based on the guidelines we have from rules takes place between individuals to determine actions that should, or should not be taken as a result
[05:31pm] <@[R]Martin> So yes, as anti says, you cannot avoid opinion on that
[05:32pm] <BlackWolf> No one has judged wrong decisions as far as I can recall. No one has given anything else but good rep to those who have come out with their mistakes and said they are sorry. What you instead do is you dont allow yourself to be wrong, you always go to your "talk to Azzer mode". You dont allow yourselves to be wrong. You dont ever admit you might have been wrong and as such you have put yourselves above others, turned yourselves to be eltistic group that is never wrong and even if you are others are not allowed to talk of it. they are only allowed to go and whine to Azzer in complete darkness.
[05:32pm] <@DA> BW, to be entirely honest with you, my moderator status aside, the fact that so many people straight up disagree with you on a number of things, including this, should be a pretty fantastic indication you're wrong, and it staggers me each and everytime something like this comes up with you, that you don't acknowledge that
[05:32pm] <jeff54321> hes BW tho hes always right like ANK
[05:33pm] <@DA> aye, that "special" kind of right that is introvert and backwards. If the two are possible in the same scenerio.
[05:34pm] <@DA> Probably not.#
[05:34pm] <@DA>
[05:35pm] <BlackWolf> antisback: It doesnt matter what is spam and what is not. It matters that when mod sees it he goes and acts like it is spam let he be right or wrong. He does it as individual, based on rules and guidelines he has been given. That way we all know he was acting as he saw rules to be followed. What you guys descripe here is exactly what I am saying, you basicly agree with me even you dont realize it. you admit that you are not making decisions based on rules and guidelines only, you admit that ever move is discussed and viewed by others. That is not "fair" way to work. That is way to work where you are enforcing opinions not acting to situations based on rules and guidelines.
[05:38pm] <BlackWolf> That is making mods to be elitistic group which doesnt "enforce" our rules and guidelines. That is group which enforces their personal opinions above the rules and guidelines we have. Azzer has clearly picked group of people to be mods who come well along which very specially tells what kind of group you are. Where you should be byrocratic institution which treats everyone the same you are group which bases its actions to group thinking and group mind and which puts you in biased position.
