@Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

[WildDisease]

This thread is mainly geared to Azzer but Im sure many players would have something to say about this.
This has been around for ages and has been a problem for players coming and going, concerning the IRC op's abuse of power.

Casually during a conversation on IRC, I asked a player for his ID and received a kick by Alci to which I expressed my displeasure towards it, as an abuse of power when he relied on the term:
"7.1 Channel staff hold the right to kick, ban or warn anyone for reasons they see fit." I asked for an apology and he refused. It sounds to me like he is creating his own rules rather than administering the Bushtarion community like he is put on there for.

This term in particular holds potential for abuse in the infinite. These rules are not implemented to protect the Ops or grant them more power than any other person in that channel but rather allow them to enforce the rules as a protection of every person in #bushtarion. This term has been referred to countless times by the IRC operator which either means the ops (more like just Alcibiades) are not properly doing their job or we don't have enough IRC rules set out to cover "what they see fit".

Here's one I experienced after sitting in this channel since R8: (that personally, disgusts me, hence my disrespect shown to fellow operator, Alcin00b)
<Alcibiades> WildDisease: you know where to contact Azzer if you have a complaint
<WildDisease> Alcibiades, no problem
<WildDisease> Ill call my attention the forums
<Nameless> amen brotha
<WildDisease> and Alcibiades, if you have a problem with me asking for IDs
<WildDisease> I think you better talk to Azzer about it
<Nameless> dude, its a rule
<Nameless> its in the rules
<WildDisease> no it isn't mate
<Nameless> dont ask for TDs
<WildDisease> show me in the rules where it implies it or administers it
<Alcibiades> 7.1 Channel staff hold the right to kick, ban or warn anyone for reasons they see fit.
<Alcibiades> *cough*
<WildDisease> That doesn't merit a kick you donkey face
<Alcibiades> that counts as OP abuse right? ^^
<Alcibiades>
<Nameless> thats such an awful rule

My point of this thread is to narrow the lines between when an op can use this term as grounds for kicking or banning. This can be by means of creating more rules for what they see is wrong or reserving this term for actions that are severe than merely asking a fellow mate, "Whats your ID?".

I've been around since R8 and when the IRC rules got implemented, it's no question one cannot post IDs in the channel but have we become so low as to even ban/kick the person who has asked? Its not like I expected the person I asked the ID of to give me the ID in the channel especially because after I asked for the ID, he followed with, "haha kick him Alci".. so as to say this is not the first time it has happened.

 

[Alcibiades]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Private Messages exist for a reason. Also if you have a complaint it should be directed in private to Azzer or myself; hashing private disputes out in public won't get anything resolved in my experience.

7.2 If you disagree with an action performed by op, expressing it in the channel is not the way to go. Normal attempts to converse in private about a manner will be taken seriously. Attempts in public, or with offensive grounds are likely not to be taken into consideration and can get you banned.

---------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: I will gladly support a rule that states explicitly that no IDs should be asked for, ever, under any circumstances as that would clear up ridiculous matters like this.

EDIT 2: While I feel no obligation to respond to personal insults and complaints in forums*; since you have raised an additional point i will address it here. There is no rule that officially and explicitly states that you cannot ask for IDs but everyone, from almost Day 1 in #bushtarion knows that you cannot post IDs, either solo or allied. You also cannot ask for them; unofficial though the rule is; it's there. You even admit it yourself here:

I've been around since R8 and when the IRC rules got implemented, it's no question one cannot post IDs in the channel

The rules in fact state that:

5.1 Pasting ingame information such as ID, player & company names or Alliance HQ Information into the channel is not allowed. [...]
5.2 Pasting an alliances ID list, offering an alliances ID list out in any form (for example "PM me for the ID list!"), or requesting an alliances ID list is strictly forbidden.

I've taken some liberty in editing the rules but you can find the original at the following link http://bushtarion.com/manual/irc_rules.php.

Now as the best and brightest will notice, this does not in fact prohibit you from asking for IDs. As i've also stated above, everyone knows that you cannot do this. WildDisease, with your 21 rounds of knowledge, surely you would know this. I only used the (infamous) 7.1 Rule, because there is no rule that prevents people from asking for IDs. If there was a rule preventing people from asking for IDs, I would have used that rule. Would you be complaining in that circumstance?

Its not like I expected the person I asked the ID of to give me the ID in the channel

Unfortunately intent has very little to do with it. You asked for an ID, which is breaking an unofficial rule of which everyone is aware. Similar to the fact that you cannot even joke about having multiple accounts; or about multiing (mentioned in the EULA I believe...). If someone were to joke about multiing, I probably wouldn't kick/ban them unless I felt they were being serious; in which case the correct punishment would ensue. It did not appear to me at the time that you were joking when you said the following:

[23:31:13] <WildDisease> son whats ur id?
[23:31:21] <son> pfft
[23:31:22] <WildDisease> Ill teach ya to ph34r TL
[23:31:23] <WildDisease>

As to the infamous 7.1 rule: rules like that exist to cover circumstances that are not dreamt of when the rules are being made up. It's a lot easier to make a set of general rules and then to have a blanket rule that lets Operators cover the unexpected. If someone were to make a comprehensive list of rules governing every conceivable offence that could be committed in #bushtarion; then by all means do away with the 7.1 rule. As it stands, it's a good deal easier to do as I stated above.

I'm sorry you feel hard done by; but if it makes you feel any better, I try exceptionally hard to be fair and adhere to the rules of #bushtarion wherever and whenever possible. I urge you to separate your particular dislike with me for your concern with the rules of the #bushtarion channel on IRC.

*I will happily respond to any and all complaints directed to me in private and everyone knows how to contact Azzer in PM on forums or on IRC if you manage to catch him then.

 

[TheNamelessWonder]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Are you serious? He kicked you for asking for IDs in the channel. Know which other ops do that? All of them. And hell, it isn't even a big deal. You didn't get banned or anything. You got kicked, so...join back up. Wow, that took what, like 3 seconds? Effing...

I do agree that the "Don't ask for IDs in #bushtarion" rule needs to be explicitly spelled out, so that we don't have this problem in the future.

And I do think that rule 7.1 is absolutely horrifying.

But ffs WD, get over it...

 

[WildDisease]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Are you serious? He kicked you for asking for IDs in the channel. Know which other ops do that? All of them. And hell, it isn't even a big deal. You didn't get banned or anything. You got kicked, so...join back up. Wow, that took what, like 3 seconds? Effing...

I do agree that the "Don't ask for IDs in #bushtarion" rule needs to be explicitly spelled out, so that we don't have this problem in the future.

And I do think that rule 7.1 is absolutely horrifying.

But ffs WD, get over it...

tbh, no wonder we only ever have like 40 people in #bushtarion.. Its no wonder at night, there's half of that..

I don't know any Op which also DO that because recently, all of the ops are rather USELESS and do not do a thing because they are never around. Alci, Bobbin and Markb are about the only ones who actively do their job. The rest sit on their throne like a bunch of bimbos.

If you think this is about me whining about being kicked, you're just as smegged up as I thought. I clearly stated my point of this thread and your ignorance to that is dismissed, I forgive you. I've brought this up in a mature matter, and if you plan to reply again, please be mature about it.

 

[Azzer]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

I thought the rules actually said no asking for ID's... pretty much anyone would have told you it was a rule. It wasn't an abuse of op power. The fact that they've had to apply the rule "ops can kick who they like", is reason supporting such a rule - it's to cover unforseen acts (like somebody *requesting* an ID) that has been neglected from being explicitly stated in the rules.

Hard to state every single thing that somebody can't do, because a lot of things can be unforseen or abused through wording of rules

Definitely no op abuse here at all. I'm sorry that the rules can't cover every eventuality, but common sense would have probably told you that no pasting of ID's equates to no requesting of ID's either - because basically the forums and IRC are simply "no ID's" at all.

 

[pinpower]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Personally i dont think it should be against the rules (specifically) to ask for an id...like if i came into the channel its quite possible that i would get into a conversation with someone i used to play with and say "so whats your ID this round, PM me"...

But there is definately no abuse of power in this case, as Alci was sticking to a rule. Tbh i do think he could have been a little bit more discretionary in this case but you cant claim abuse of power when it is technically a rule.

Also, as i said in another thread about Azzer deciding to issue warnings/lockage etc i think having a human element is good...yes its open to someone "abusing their power" but from what ive seen of the bushtarion mod team they are all pretty fair most of the time...they'll always be the odd occasion where someone over-reacts a bit (normally due to past dealings with a person) but everyone is human...they can be forgiven for the odd mistake...

I would hate to be in an environment with rules TOO rigid...at least with the 7.1 rule anything a mod considers to be covered by that rule allows them to use their common sense when handing out punishments...(i.e, just a quick PM reminding someone of a rule, kicking, bans etc etc)

Just my thoughts...
x

 

[tobapopalos]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

But ffs WD, get over it...

Seconded.

Stop being such a bitchy little girl and grow a pair.

 

[No-Dachi]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

[23:31:13] <WildDisease> son whats ur id?
[23:31:21] <son> pfft
[23:31:22] <WildDisease> Ill teach ya to ph34r TL
[23:31:23] <WildDisease>

So WD got kicked for making a joke. Nice...

 

[Chezz]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Actually I think there is a rule that sort of prohibits asking for IDs:

6.6 Inciting others to violate any of the rules is indirectly breaking them yourself. This kind of sneaky behaviour can lead to a kickban without warning.

Asking for IDs from others is trying to make other's break the rules, especially when WD himself knows that posting IDs is banned.

 

[Mysterious]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

5.2 Pasting an alliances ID list, offering an alliances ID list out in any form (for example "PM me for the ID list!"), or requesting an alliances ID list is strictly forbidden.

Surely, this example of rule 5.2 implies that asking for an ID from a person (even if you expect it in PM) is against the rules.

Now, I don't feel Alci has done ANYTHING wrong. He has perfectly good reason to kick.

However, saying that, I feel it is rather pedantic to kick someone in light of the context the question was asked. Maybe it would have been better to assess the context first (as it seems to be a joke).

Alci is a perfectly fair and great op, leave him alone WildDisease
While you may not expect most players to ACTUALLY give you their ID, some newbie or kid will actually do it

 

[Alcibiades]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

delete post please. accident

 

[rooney]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

to be honest imo alci is one of the fairer ops in #bush. you broke the rules. a kic may have been harsh, but i assume you have auto rejoin on, so all that happenned was you missed 1.5 secods on convo... really sucks to be you :roll:

 

[BlackWolf]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

I am forced to go with Dachi and WD on this.
Kicked for a joke

I dont know what some people do think of rules and kicking, but to me it is insult to be kicked for no reason, it doesnt matter even if you can join back to channel immediatedly. If there is no reason for OP to kick you, then he is abusing hes power and even if it is not ban from channel it is still using the power you dont have against you.

For some weird reason I think there has been one too many complaints against current OPs and I simply cant understand why they still are having their power. Is it so hard to understand that things like this, where player feels insulted only end up to bad blood in community and wont ever do good for the game... Specially arrogant responses to reasons behind the kick are ones that makes me very angry.

I thought OPs are at their position because they love bushtarion and want to give to its community, not because they want to be above others... maybe I have been wrong all these years

 

[Alcibiades]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

For some weird reason I think there has been one too many complaints against current OPs and I simply cant understand why they still are having their power.

We're all being deopped and reviewed before the next Age. Applications will be reviewed from all players who wish to apply by Azzer. I'm assuming there will be some rather necessary changes.

As for it being a joke.... contrary to popular opinion I do not always sit around watching the #bushtarion channel to interpret the every nuance of someone's comment. I was watching a movie, posting in forums, reading my alliance pols, sending an attack and eating a ham sandwich. I happened to alt tab into #bushtarion to check up on the situation and saw someone requesting an ID. I automatically did what i'm supposed to do. I may have been a bit quick off the trigger and for that I apologize. Either way, if you 'joke' about having multiple accounts you can be kicked/banned; same goes for joking about breaking the rules. Operator discretion.

 

[Cyrus]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

i wanna apply to be an op, where do i go?

 

[BlackWolf]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

1. Why you didnt explain that to person you kicked?
2. Why you acted towards him like the owner of the world instead of saying you are sorry?

You ever thought that with such small thing with such small words this whole thing could have been avoided? You know WD is human too, he felt offended so it is usually much better to clear things with such person and even to pologiese, even if you felt you did right thing at the moment.

Trust me, I have been referee for some 10 years now, I know how to handle people who are punished and pissed of it. Sometimes you just must let things go, or to be ready to say your sorry, you just didnt notice etc.

 

[Alcibiades]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

1. Why you didnt explain that to person you kicked?
2. Why you acted towards him like the owner of the world instead of saying you are sorry?

You ever thought that with such small thing with such small words this whole thing could have been avoided? You know WD is human too, he felt offended so it is usually much better to clear things with such person and even to pologiese, even if you felt you did right thing at the moment.

Trust me, I have been referee for some 10 years now, I know how to handle people who are punished and pissed of it. Sometimes you just must let things go, or to be ready to say your sorry, you just didnt notice etc.

You're right about one thing in your post tho; it is an unbelievably small issue, and i can hardly believe it's gotten blown this out of proportion.

The only thing I'm aware of doing wrong was that I was faster than I should've been on the kick. He broke a rule and suffered the punishment.

1: He knows exactly why he was kicked. He solicited IDs. That is not allowed. Everyone knows that.
2: I didn't act like the owner of the world. I performed my duty as required of me.

I know WD is human, and I'm sure he was a little miffed at being kicked (in fact the proof is this thread) and that too, is a perfectly human emotion. I'm not saying he isn't allowed to gripe, or be upset. But he seems to be annoyed that he was kicked with reason. If i'd banned him i'd say yes, I owe him an apology as that would be an overreaction of the highest order.

I don't feel like I should have to coddle everyone who gets a warning/kick/ban. I'm not personally holding a grudge against anyone I kick and I don't do it because I love having power. If you want the truth, I became an OP so I could regulate the bushtarion hours when most of the European Operators were not active. I'm sorry he seems to be taking this personally, but any other OP there would probably have done the same thing. Or given him a warning. Either way, as I said earlier, I (personally) believe that people who should know better deserve a harsher punishment because they are deliberately breaking the rules. Maybe it was a joke, I'm not a mind reader. Now he'll know next time not to break the rules; or to request someone's ID in a PM or just talk to them in PM about it.

Please let's avoid making this issue any bigger than it has already become.

 

[BlackWolf]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

I only stated what I would have done. Asked the questions that I wondered about. I dont think that civilized discussion can ever go too far or be too big.
I think WD is on to something with his thread. Maybe not about this case but over all. I just can say what I think and I think that he made a joke yet broke the rule while making so and you kicked him bit too fast.

In the end it doesnt really matter what happend, I think what happend afterwards was the thing I wouldnt have done and that is like on many previous cases the thing what gets me uppset. I dont direct my words towards anyone personally, yet sometimes I am forced to think that some OPs are doing their job for some other reason than just for communitys well being.

I also am forced to pologiese, but I do think that if we find some flaw in the system, we should bring it up and we should discuss about it. If we just sweep everything under carpet I dont think things will ever change to better.

 

[Alcibiades]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

http://bushtarion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2204

Case closed I think.

 

[BlackWolf]

Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Alci why so afraid and eager to drop this convo?