Illegal?

[Polo]

A while back I created a Firefox extension for Bushtarion. A screenshot showing the type of things it does can be found here. The extension automatically parses pages for you and displays relevant information within the page. I originally planned to make this available publicly, however Azzer advised me not to make it public and said

Hmmm right now it's bordering on grey but according to the "recommended rules" (which didn't get made official) it's illegal.

There was a pretty lengthy discussion on IRC tonight about whether or not things like this should be illegal. Imo, so long as a player forces the interaction with the server himself (ie. the player clicks refresh/a link) it should be legal. If, however, the player uses a script to interact with the server for him (ie. an auto refresher) it should be illegal. Blackwolf kept going on about how it should be illegal as it does not require the player to click a button or c&p the page anywhere. However, if the player needs to click refresh, why should he have to bother then clicking a button or c&p'ing?

Such a script could be used as a basis for a lot more (ie. something that scans the page for incoming and alerts you if necessary). But this would require the use of an autorefresher and, as I said, I feel auto refreshers should be illegal as the player is not involved in the interacting with the server.

So, should this be illegal or not?

 

[BlackWolf]

Re: Illegal?

With current rules when autorefreshers are allowed your program is illegal in my eyes as it automates game.
If autorefreshers would be illegal and everyone would need to press refresh themselves story would be different.

In the end combinding automatical refresher and automatical copy&paste thing incoming alarms etc can be done easily and i really dont want to see those in game.
One must go automatical c&p or refreshers at best case both.

 

[antisback]

Re: Illegal?

When i was discussing with azzer when i was preparing to release my firefox plugin, he said
"No automatic Parsing of Pages"
So the question of the matter is, does an auto refresher parse pages automatically for a user.

Ps. I also got the impression you were not allowed to input any data on the pages, which is something i had experimented with but was told is probably borderline grey area

 

[DarkSider]

Re: Illegal?

I think best tools are the tools that require least effort to use. Personally i saw absolutelly no harm in Polo's script and thought Azzer told him not to release his extension because .. well maybe he was in a no mood that day.
You can usually have a good ideea if one script crosses the line, but i'm very lenient in that area and i think i'd agree to have legal any script that simply saves time so you don't have to calculate manually. If you need to click a button where it says "Click here to find out how much you make per tick" or if the script automatically parses overview and shows like in Polo's script it's quite irrelevant imo and just convenient to have the info shown with the least effort.
A script that should be illegal would do something for you, even if you are not at the pc at that time. So it's not a matter of saving time to calculate things anymore.

 

[Bobbin]

Re: Illegal?

Auto parseing of pages is not allowed. I had a chat about it with Azzer.

However, if you have to click a button to parse the page, It's fine.

So not automatic interaction with the server, simple as.

 

[BlackWolf]

Re: Illegal?

Darksider: Auto parsin can be used to direct amount of seeds to calculator.
Or used to parse amount of income to calculator that checks if you should be notified or not. (smart inc alarm)

Problem is that location where stuff is parsed is meaningless. As you cant say stuff like "You cant have calculator or alarm on your comp". But you can say you cant automatically parse anything from bushtarion.
Theres the problem with polos really neat thing.
Same way of doing things can be used to cheat and as such if one is allowed you cant really say other is disallowed.

 

[Azzer]

Re: Illegal?

Theres the problem with polos really neat thing.
Same way of doing things can be used to cheat and as such if one is allowed you cant really say other is disallowed.

Bingo

 

[DarkSider]

Re: Illegal?

Ofc Azz can say what's legal and what not. The tools posted are all for public use and owners ask for permision .. if it's anything that shouldn't be distributed.
Yes it can be made a tool to auto refresh and send you an alert, and it's highly unlikely Azzer can randomly find somebody using something like that, but we only talk about scripts that are made for the whole bushtarion comunity.
If a script parses automatically the overview and tells you how much your seeds are worth i find it ridiculous to say it's illegal to distribute because others could make another script that can play for you 24/7. And since the seed script parses the overview and it's allowed you think that no other parsers could be called illegal anymore.

 

[Davis]

Re: Illegal?

I don't understand why this is illegal yet auto-refreshing isn't... Auto-Refreshing take the page and reloads it over and over.
According to others arguments one of the main reasons this is illegal is due to the fact its "automated" and you don't have to C&P/Click a Button... since when did you have to C&P/Click a Button when you Auto-Refresh? sure you have to click one to start it, but you also have to click on to start up Polo's add-on, how else would it get to the page that it is parsing? And your saying this isn't allowed because with it people could cheat, but the add-on itself does not cheat in any way shape or form, the individual wanting to cheat would have to code his own script to do the cheating, sure if they use his already finished script to work off of it would make things easier, but I still don't see how Polo is at fault for others cheating way? He is just trying to help the public by doing what others have already done, but instead of having to type in what you want to know his just parses the page and finds it out for you. I just figured that making the game a few keystrokes easier wouldn't be such a big deal. Correct me if I'm wrong.
-Davis

Theres the problem with polos really neat thing.
Same way of doing things can be used to cheat and as such if one is allowed you cant really say other is disallowed.

Bingo

You see Azzer the difference is, one *IS* cheating... the other *ISN'T* thats why you can allow some and not the others. There is a HUGE difference between the two objects, one parses the page and finds out if it needs to wake you or anything, the other parses the page and tells you information you can already find elsewere just in a much faster in easier rate.

Yes it can be made a tool to auto refresh and send you an alert, and it's highly unlikely Azzer can randomly find somebody using something like that

This could have already been answered elsewhere but seeing as Azzer is the owner of bushtarion, doesn't he have the ability to see if someone is just refreshing on one page over and over? and then to see if every time they get incs they all of a sudden start going elsewhere in the game then after awhile they are just on that one page refreshing ever 10 mins or so, staying on one page? I've never ran a website or anything, but I figured he could see what pages people were going to and how often and such, if not then disregard this argument

 

[antisback]

Re: Illegal?

Merely add a randomiser into the refresh equation and you'll make it very difficult to detect, detectable only by the fact that someone is permenantly on...

Anyhow, i've done some experimenting with my toolkit, and i'm gonna join polo's side of the argument as i want to release the orgasmically good new version

 

[Davis]

Re: Illegal?

Merely add a randomiser into the refresh equation and you'll make it very difficult to detect, detectable only by the fact that someone is permenantly on...

Yeah i was thinking that shortly after my post but, you still have the whole staying on one page or going back to a certain page over and over because its not like they can see if they have inc on more than 2 pages? also its quite obvious that no one in bushtarion possibly plays 24/7 ... its just not humanly possible. =/

 

[Azzer]

Re: Illegal?

Well regardless of anything, absolute DEFINITE "official no's" are;

No sending ANYTHING to the server from a script. Any interaction at all (eg any communication with Bush) must only be done by a user clicking something at a time.
No requesting ANYTHING extra from the server via a script - eg no auto-loading any pages of any kind. Only parse whatever page the user themselves have manually loaded. No auto-redirecting them to other pages, auto loading other pages or anything of any kind like that.

Those are the two things that I will be absolutely 100% on regardless of what your script may or may not be in terms of "innocent".

I'd also like to heavily discourage anything that takes away from the user experience and turns the game in to a mindless "click this button and this script does it all for you". Script writers should be seen to take a responsibility and while I understand they want to make something that looks uber and everyone wants, they also have to bear the game in mind rather than just try and get people to install/use their scripts whatever the 'cost'.

I'm really only at home with more simple things like harvester calcs that tell you how many harvs you need but don't do anything about it for you for instance.

 

[BlackWolf]

Re: Illegal?

I tried to point out earlier and dont know if everyone really got it but situation is this:
If you have program A which is used to c&p information from your screen to program B which calculates for example seed amounts. Azzer cant say that program B is illegal as its only calculator. It doesnt have connection as calculator between it and Bushtarion. Same way that program B may be alarm, or SMS sender. As it has no connection to Bushtarion there is no one who can tell you that you cant have it.
Its like you would have some illegal software on your comp. Even Azzer would be against you playing Bushtarion from cracked Windows, he cant ban you from doing it.

But he can say that using program A which is directly connected to Bushtarion is illegal. What is done with that stuff that is copy pasted is as such irrelevant. No matter you use it to right or wrong purpose as that cant be stopt by Azzer, but he can forbid usage of ways and means to do such thing in first place.
And this is where polos program runs to problems.

 

[DarkSider]

Re: Illegal?

Your reply doesn't make sense BW.
If he can't catch the part of the script where the calcs are done how can he catch the part of script where data from overview is beeing copyed ? You are saying let's make illegal all scripts even if they can't be detected .. because who knows maybe one of those scripts does something that's not allowed.
Azzer's reply pretty much sumed it all. No script to get info from the server like doing a massive search each tick and get an updated "dumpfile" for each tick nor a script that will send stuff directly to the server like a button to "send all stuff to id 1" or something like "automatic send this stuff at this id 2 seconds before the tick".
So if i'm not mistaking leaves green light to all/most tools that are used just to calculate some things faster and probably more accurate.

 

[BlackWolf]

Re: Illegal?

Is having multies illegal? Or logging in to others account?
Can those really be detected specially if you use tools like remote control? No. Still those are illegal.
Rules are rules even if those cant be detected. Those are still there for reason, cause without those it would be encouraging to use such tools.
If there wouldnt be part in EULA saying you are not to have more than 1 account etc. it would be same as saying "go ahead have multiple accounts", that if such thing is detected or not is completely different thing.

This shows clearly how much certain people can think of whole matter as concept and not only as parts of it they like. As i have said 30 times now its neat tool, but as long as same system (automatical c&p) can be used to cheating its clear that it cant exist.

 

[Benneh]

Re: Illegal?

Uhmm Azzer... I also have an extention which does something very close to what this does. I showed you it and you told me it's fine to use.
Why is this so different and 'illegal'?
:?

 

[Azzer]

Re: Illegal?

... it's not ^^ Read my posts

 

[Benneh]

Re: Illegal?

I don't read, you should know that
but oh.. okay, fair enough