Changes to Magic Route

[Ahead]

At the moment, the magic route is the only route without any real purpose. It's there as a support route, and tbh it isn't even good at that.


Sirens:
Either:
Make sirens a tad cheaper - 45k, and boost their armour slightly
Or:
Make them 55k but fire before terrors

Sorcs:
Make them target ALL/NLD instead of just ALL but increase their firepower, so they will do the same damage to 'ALL' (i.e. make them 30% more powerful?).


Just a few ideas, I'm sure I've thought of more in the past but I can't remember them atm so I'll just edit if I do remember. Witches could do with a change too tbh, but I'm not entirely sure what could be done with them.

 

[TheNamelessWonder]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

The route is just great if played properly. However, I do see a lot of people complaining about it being weak. My main complaint with it is that sirens simply aren't worth what they cost. They die way too easy. Either lower the cost or make them tougher, because as it stands, if I go this route I won't buy a single one all round. They're good against TL, and die easy to nearly anything else.

 

[CLem]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

I was going to post something about this so here is what i got in mind:

Serf
At the moment it is the most retarded Tier one unit, all T1 units have some use in the route but serfs are even worst than privates because at least privates can kill flak at the start and also can be used in an alliance as sweeper.

Now look at the stats of Serf
Serf * LET Kills [close] NLT LET 410 3 £18,500 * * * *

It targets NLT and LET, when the unit first comes out, there is no chance that spies are out yet so attacking with them blinding will be stupid, hence attack wise it is crap. And on the other hand in defense, similar argument, who would send NLT and LET to attack you after the first day of the round?? So is there isn't any use for the unit when it comes out.

How about later on in the game? You have witches, golems to provide LET flk you would not need Serfs to flk, also you don't need serfs to attack people with NLTs when you can just kill them in the range ticks with Sorcerers.

So i have 2 suggestions:
1) due to the totally rubbish last tick ability of a magic player, unless they have dragons that is,
change Serf into a NLT or NLD that fires before Gurus targeting ALL. Cost around the same/ higher and has stats */*/**/**
2) change it to an INN with pure Health, for gardening or harvesting, stats similar to cyborg gardener.

 

[kyx]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

erm... if sorcs do 130% of their current dmg and 70% of tt is on ALL, then 91% of the original damage is on ALL, which means that the damage going to ALL is not the same as the original.

Anyway, I completely agree with this, the Fantasy/magic route needs some last ticking power and a little buff.

 

[TheNamelessWonder]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

The route obviously needs dragons, and can barely function without them later on. But with them, set up right it has very few weaknesses.

Though sirens suck, and need to be improved.

 

[Ahead]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

erm... if sorcs do 130% of their current dmg and 70% of tt is on ALL, then 91% of the original damage is on ALL, which means that the damage going to ALL is not the same as the original.

I knew it wasn't completely right but I couldn't be arsed to calc it and I hoped most people would know what I meant anyway lol.

Also, yeh I forgot about serfs, they definitely need changing.. I think maybe making them NLT id the best option, reduce the cost to 14k or so and keep targetting and power the same, so they still do the same job (stop sweepers from firing), just more effectively and less risky in the opening stages of the round.

Also, TheNamelessWonder, I've played the route at medium and high ranks, and it is too weak compared to other routes. Whatever your setup is, it's still quite easy to kill you - you can't mass sirens, golems or witches, cos you'll die really easily, massing sorcs leaves you vulnerable to people flakking their LETs with flak and as sorcs die like flies most of them will be dead second tick, and dragons also die quite easily for their cost, so atm it isn't too hard to take it down: it's really quite weak against armoured routes (robo in particular) and vamps. I feel it needs changing because atm the only routes it kills well are underteched SOs (without SAs), puppets (ish) and rangers who are a bit smaller than you and don't have too much flak.

Maybe if the changes I said in the first post are made, you could make dragons come out 10-12 hours later than they do atm, because that's the only strength I can see with the route atm - you get dragons early if you start at the beginning of the round and you're a good starter and techer.

 

[TheNamelessWonder]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

Also, TheNamelessWonder, I've played the route at medium and high ranks, and it is too weak compared to other routes. Whatever your setup is, it's still quite easy to kill you - you can't mass sirens, golems or witches, cos you'll die really easily, massing sorcs leaves you vulnerable to people flakking their LETs with flak and as sorcs die like flies most of them will be dead second tick, and dragons also die quite easily for their cost, so atm it isn't too hard to take it down: it's really quite weak against armoured routes (robo in particular) and vamps. I feel it needs changing because atm the only routes it kills well are underteched SOs (without SAs), puppets (ish) and rangers who are a bit smaller than you and don't have too much flak.

I disagree with all of that. Set it up properly and nobody in their right mind will attack you if they're anywhere near your size, and you'll even be able to hold your own against robos. Only real problem is when buckets of TLs show up, but that's only because sirens suck.

 

[Turnip2k]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

I also found vampires to be a massive problem - they could zero me comfortably with barely any return fire. Witches need to not be such a specialised unit - they really need to do more than kill TL's and hurt thugs a bit (and rarely get to fire due to getting zeroed on first tick).

Sirens need to fire much earlier - before terrorists possibly, but definately before SA. Dragons are fine, but I would make them more expensive and more powerful, to allow them to be flakked better by the other lethals.

Sorcs, probably a little more health and armour.

The route is vunerable to robos, but this should be so I feel. They shouldnt fall so easily to TL / Vamps though and should be a little stronger against SA. Having 8 routes which can badly hammer you (TL / vamps / robo) and 2 which you will always get badly stung by (SA / apache) is too much.

 

[Ahead]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

Also, TheNamelessWonder, I've played the route at medium and high ranks, and it is too weak compared to other routes. Whatever your setup is, it's still quite easy to kill you - you can't mass sirens, golems or witches, cos you'll die really easily, massing sorcs leaves you vulnerable to people flakking their LETs with flak and as sorcs die like flies most of them will be dead second tick, and dragons also die quite easily for their cost, so atm it isn't too hard to take it down: it's really quite weak against armoured routes (robo in particular) and vamps. I feel it needs changing because atm the only routes it kills well are underteched SOs (without SAs), puppets (ish) and rangers who are a bit smaller than you and don't have too much flak.

I disagree with all of that. Set it up properly and nobody in their right mind will attack you if they're anywhere near your size, and you'll even be able to hold your own against robos. Only real problem is when buckets of TLs show up, but that's only because sirens suck.

Ever played the route at a high rank? If a robo is a good player and he wants your land he will get it, simple as! As soon as his CWs and TDs fire (sorcs will do little to no damage to them as they will be flakked by yobs and gards), you're pretty much dead.

And how many people around your size attack you whatever route you are. Magic route shouldn't be a rubbishy, mobile imitation of the bunker route - it shouldn't not be able to attack people effectively just because a few people who don't know how to attack it don't bother attacking it. Yes you will take damage if you hit a sorc, but at the end of the day the route basically kills nothing well, making it a pretty pointless route.

Basically I agree with Turnip <3 Too many routes that kill you, and not enough that you can effectively attack without taking equal losses to damages.

 

[TheNamelessWonder]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

By all means, buff it! I still contend that it can handle most everything reasonably well (except TLs), but it seems I'm in the minority. Buff away!

 

[Shadow]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

I also found vampires to be a massive problem - they could zero me comfortably with barely any return fire. Witches need to not be such a specialised unit - they really need to do more than kill TL's and hurt thugs a bit (and rarely get to fire due to getting zeroed on first tick).

Sirens need to fire much earlier - before terrorists possibly, but definately before SA. Dragons are fine, but I would make them more expensive and more powerful, to allow them to be flakked better by the other lethals.

Sorcs, probably a little more health and armour.

The route is vunerable to robos, but this should be so I feel. They shouldnt fall so easily to TL / Vamps though and should be a little stronger against SA. Having 8 routes which can badly hammer you (TL / vamps / robo) and 2 which you will always get badly stung by (SA / apache) is too much.

Have you actually played the route?

Magic route is awesome the way it is. Terr's dont beat it, send a little bit of Gard's and terr's do close to no damage against lethals and Sirens get 1:2+ against TL's and on middle tick Witches get 1:3 so i fail to see how TL's beat it. As for Vamps, Vamps do beat it but take stupid ammounts of loses and only really beat it if the person masses vamps which then leave that person fooked if they come accross anything with armour. and robo is just robo its evil and loaded with armour but with a nice ammount of Dragons and sorcs can be beaten(barely).

and SA do F'all damage against Sirens as sirens are undead and SA's do 2.5:1 against Sirens. i spent a whole round massing sirens and hitting SO players and beating them with this ratio.

with Sirens route you can't jsut mass 1 unit like quite a few of the other routes, you need to work out a Ratio of troops to beat others and if you can't do that then heres a simple suggestion, dont play the route...

Also, what are there 8 routes that pwn Magic route?

only routes i can think of that beats it with minimal loses is robo's and possibly rangers if fought across all 3 ticks and the person masses rangers and even then you will take a few loses.

 

[Turnip2k]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

Have you actually played the route?

Indeed I have - check my profile.

Magic route is awesome the way it is. Terr's dont beat it, send a little bit of Gard's and terr's do close to no damage against lethals and Sirens get 1:2+ against TL's and on middle tick Witches get 1:3 so i fail to see how TL's beat it. As for Vamps, Vamps do beat it but take stupid ammounts of loses and only really beat it if the person masses vamps which then leave that person fooked if they come accross anything with armour. and robo is just robo its evil and loaded with armour but with a nice ammount of Dragons and sorcs can be beaten(barely).

Witches rarely live to fire on second tick if you get hit by someone with a large number of TL's (which lets face it, will almost always be the case, people aren't going to find you for a fair fight). Sirens are great against TL's, but if you build any decent number of sirens you eat up stupid amounts of score. They are extremely fragile and get hurt quite badly even by terrors - god forbid you get hit by vamps. This route can maybe put up a fight against someone, but it needs to sacrifice so much to do so, that it becomes a sitting duck for any other route. I don't get where you thought that a vamp hit will take losses - they kill sirens 2:1 easily, sorcs 1:1 no problem and dragons 0.75:1 ish. They also have gargoyles to mop up any dragons which lived - and both of these units fire before anything of yours fires that is lethal.

and SA do F'all damage against Sirens as sirens are undead and SA's do 2.5:1 against Sirens. i spent a whole round massing sirens and hitting SO players and beating them with this ratio.

Sirens dont actually stop the SA firing at your other lethals, which WILL hurt you badly. Your telling me you mass sirens and didnt get frenzied incomings from bribers / robo / mil / prot? Come on, massing sirens may be an option in the top ally, but anywhere else and it will cost you and / or your ally heavily. You are talking totally artifically here.

with Sirens route you can't jsut mass 1 unit like quite a few of the other routes, you need to work out a Ratio of troops to beat others and if you can't do that then heres a simple suggestion, dont play the route...

Quite contradictory to what you said above no? No, you cant realistically mass one unit - agreed. But all the units in the route are too specialised or too costly. Witches kill TL's and sting thugs - but only if you can middle tick. Sirens block TL's nicely, but you need so many of them, that the route becomes stupidly pathetic against a plethora of other routes, not to mention the ease at which sirens die to anything.

Also, what are there 8 routes that pwn Magic route?

I listed them. All of those routes can easily kill a magic route when attacking - it can be easier or harder depending on setup, but its always a convincing smackdown.

only routes i can think of that beats it with minimal loses is robo's and possibly rangers if fought across all 3 ticks and the person masses rangers and even then you will take a few loses.

Rangers are the one route i could actually attack with this route and beat them convincingly. Sirens / dragons and sorcs all mean that rangers are a perfect kill target. Dragons kill rangers quite cost effectively. Robos, as you rightly said, just grind you into the dirt, which I have no problem with. Every route needs a nemesis, but this one has too many.

 

[Turnip2k]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

Have you actually played the route?

Indeed I have - check my profile.

Magic route is awesome the way it is. Terr's dont beat it, send a little bit of Gard's and terr's do close to no damage against lethals and Sirens get 1:2+ against TL's and on middle tick Witches get 1:3 so i fail to see how TL's beat it. As for Vamps, Vamps do beat it but take stupid ammounts of loses and only really beat it if the person masses vamps which then leave that person fooked if they come accross anything with armour. and robo is just robo its evil and loaded with armour but with a nice ammount of Dragons and sorcs can be beaten(barely).

Witches rarely live to fire on second tick if you get hit by someone with a large number of TL's (which lets face it, will almost always be the case, people aren't going to find you for a fair fight). Sirens are great against TL's, but if you build any decent number of sirens you eat up stupid amounts of score. They are extremely fragile and get hurt quite badly even by terrors - god forbid you get hit by vamps. This route can maybe put up a fight against someone, but it needs to sacrifice so much to do so, that it becomes a sitting duck for any other route. I don't get where you thought that a vamp hit will take losses - they kill sirens 2:1 easily, sorcs 1:1 no problem and dragons 0.75:1 ish. They also have gargoyles to mop up any dragons which lived - and both of these units fire before anything of yours fires that is lethal.

and SA do F'all damage against Sirens as sirens are undead and SA's do 2.5:1 against Sirens. i spent a whole round massing sirens and hitting SO players and beating them with this ratio.

Sirens dont actually stop the SA firing at your other lethals, which WILL hurt you badly. Your telling me you mass sirens and didnt get frenzied incomings from bribers / robo / mil / prot? Come on, massing sirens may be an option in the top ally, but anywhere else and it will cost you and / or your ally heavily. You are talking totally artifically here.

with Sirens route you can't jsut mass 1 unit like quite a few of the other routes, you need to work out a Ratio of troops to beat others and if you can't do that then heres a simple suggestion, dont play the route...

Quite contradictory to what you said above? No, you cant realistically mass one unit - agreed. But all the units in the route are too specialised or too costly. Witches kill TL's and sting thugs - but only if you can middle tick. Sirens block TL's nicely, but they cost alot and you need so many of them, that the route becomes stupidly pathetic against a plethora of other routes, not to mention the ease at which sirens die to anything.

Also, what are there 8 routes that pwn Magic route?

I listed them. All of those routes can easily kill a magic route when attacking - it can be easier or harder depending on setup, but its always a convincing smackdown.

only routes i can think of that beats it with minimal loses is robo's and possibly rangers if fought across all 3 ticks and the person masses rangers and even then you will take a few loses.

Rangers are the one route i could actually attack with this route and beat them convincingly. Sirens / dragons and sorcs all mean that rangers are a perfect kill target. Dragons kill rangers quite cost effectively. Robos, as you rightly said, just grind you into the dirt, which I have no problem with. Every route needs a nemesis, but this one has too many.

 

[Ahead]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

I echo everything Turnip said in his last post

Have you actually played the route?

No offence and nothing personal but tbh I think both Turnip and I played the route better than you I'm not trying to be arrogant or give myself an ego-boost but I didn't really see you go on too many attacks or gain a lot of eff/BH etc (when there was base bounty and BH was a rank) when you played the route

Magic route is awesome the way it is.

It really isn't.. I admit it does have a few strong points, but these are very limited and offset by the bad points of the route.

Terr's dont beat it, send a little bit of Gard's and terr's do close to no damage against lethals

Terrors do kill sirens fairly well as they're so weak (I'd say about 3:1 which is pretty damn good when you take costs into consideration). Also, gards won't stop your LETs from dying.. terrors target INN LET.. the terrors will just chomp up your flak and kill the same number of LETs

and Sirens get 1:2+ against TL's and on middle tick Witches get 1:3 so i fail to see how TL's beat it.

Ok, let's see.. if the thug sends a few jeeps, bikers and terrors, the sirens are completely ****ed, and TLs will fire (remember TLs cost 40k, terrors cost 28k and sirens cost 47.5k, and it's likely to be somebody around 200% of you hitting you so the sirens won't stop everything). Also, it's likely that the thug will be massing TLs and jeeps (general statement I know but it does happen a lot), and you can't mass sirens, that's just suicide.. you need more sorcs and dragons than sirens, so you won't have nearly enough sirens to stop TLs from firing, so you die first tick, including witches!

As for Vamps, Vamps do beat it but take stupid ammounts of loses and only really beat it if the person masses vamps which then leave that person fooked if they come accross anything with armour.

I don't wanna repeat Turnip too much but he's right.. vamps really do rip you apart.

and SA do F'all damage against Sirens as sirens are undead and SA's do 2.5:1 against Sirens.

Actually SAs get closer to 2:1 against them and as you're not likely to have massed sirens (as it will leave you vulnerable to every route apart from thug really), they won't really do a huge amount. Also, the SAs have already fired, what's the point in stunning them after you've already taken the huge amounts of damage?!

and possibly rangers if fought across all 3 ticks and the person masses rangers and even then you will take a few loses.

Actually, as Turnip said, magic does really well against ranger route but seeing as it's a fairly underplayed route, that doesn't leave you with too many targets.

Also, just to clarify what I wrote earlier in this post, the route is fairly good in some circumstances, I have played it, I know, but it's disadvantages just outweigh it's advantages atm tbh. The changes I suggested aren't really that huge and they won't make the route insanely overpowered, just make it a little bit more playable.

Also, something I just thought of with reference to the biker thread, maybe replace witches with some kind of anti-biker unit that only really kills bikers well? I dunno, just something I thought of on the spot. If this happened though, golems and this unit could be swapped so that the anti-biker unit is the engineering unit instead of golems..?

 

[Shadow]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

not entirel;y sure how to use quoting system so i wont even try so bare with me on this

"Indeed I have - check my profile."

i asked if you had "Played" the route not been teh route and with what you said i would guess you have not really played the route jsut used hte route and tried stuff out and yet to find something that works for you.

"Witches rarely live to fire on second tick if you get hit by someone with a large number of TL's (which lets face it, will almost always be the case, people aren't going to find you for a fair fight). Sirens are great against TL's, but if you build any decent number of sirens you eat up stupid amounts of score. They are extremely fragile and get hurt quite badly even by terrors - god forbid you get hit by vamps. This route can maybe put up a fight against someone, but it needs to sacrifice so much to do so, that it becomes a sitting duck for any other route. I don't get where you thought that a vamp hit will take losses - they kill sirens 2:1 easily, sorcs 1:1 no problem and dragons 0.75:1 ish. They also have gargoyles to mop up any dragons which lived - and both of these units fire before anything of yours fires that is lethal."

You dont need many witches, and with golems and Sorcs/Dragosn as cover your witches survive fine unless ofc you mass witches which is just pointless and stupid in my eyes. and your ratios on Vamps against Sirens as a route a well off. im using Vamps this round and ive hit maybe 1 or 2 Sorc route users and ive beat em but your Ratios of Vamps killing any unit from teh magic route is off, ive massed vamps this round and i barely get above 1:1 against any unit in the Magic route and Witches survive against Vamps easily and do some serious damage to them with help from teh Sirens.

"Sirens dont actually stop the SA firing at your other lethals, which WILL hurt you badly. Your telling me you mass sirens and didnt get frenzied incomings from bribers / robo / mil / prot? Come on, massing sirens may be an option in the top ally, but anywhere else and it will cost you and / or your ally heavily. You are talking totally artifically here."

Yeah sirens dont stop SA's from firing but SA's dont do anywhere near enoguh AR damage to hurt any unit in the Magic route and the only unit it does plough through is witches and you only have a few of them and they are pretty much covered by the AR of all teh other units in the route so im not sure where you you go the whole SA's "hurt you badly" idea from. when i was Sirens route a few rounds back i had like twice as many Sirens as i did sorcs and Dragons and i PLOUGED through SA players who were PURE sa's and barely took any damage from teh ammount of AR i had covering them and the fact SA's get 2:1 against Sirens and cost more then Sirens.

"Quite contradictory to what you said above? No, you cant realistically mass one unit - agreed. But all the units in the route are too specialised or too costly. Witches kill TL's and sting thugs - but only if you can middle tick. Sirens block TL's nicely, but they cost alot and you need so many of them, that the route becomes stupidly pathetic against a plethora of other routes, not to mention the ease at which sirens die to anything."

I'll give you that 1 i should have explained wot i meant by "massing Sirens" by massing i mean having a good 2 times the ammount of your second lethal of Chioce which for me is normally dragons with a few sorcs and witches and golems for Cover on middle. and you dont need many Sirens to block TL's, as i said, they get 1:2 against TL's possibly more, im not sure on how much they get now EXP has been gone and ive not used em for a while but when i had em they did like 1:4 with about 30% EXP. and once again i will say, Sirens dont die easily. they dont have much but with other units in yoru route set up Sirens dont really get hit much.

Say...having half yoru lethals as Sirens and then the other half spread between wot other units you need, will pretty much hold its own against any route bar robo's ofc and even then if there is not a stupidly high ammount of PA's you could probably scare em off anyway with your dragons and Sorcs as they do a fair ammount of AR damage.

"I listed them. All of those routes can easily kill a magic route when attacking - it can be easier or harder depending on setup, but its always a convincing smackdown."

yeah im still unsure as to what routes your on about here :s

Mil has RPG's Strikers and Rangers. RPG's get slaughtered with close to any ratio you use. Strikers get destroyed by sorcs and Dragons with ease, please dont question it ive done it hundreds of times in W1 and in PW's and in the old forusm if you have a look at PW section there is a thread or 2 that even state how much damage Dragosn do against striker/apache(i think it was martin who said it both times aswell, im not sure). Ranger if massed beat Magic route but you will take a few loses first tick and if you send a bit of flak through the Sorcs will pretty much leave the Rangers alone and Dragons dont do enoguh damage on there own to slaughter Rangers but will do some nice damage, but on middle tick the Magic route just get slaughtered.

Robo - well yeah they RIPE through the route but shields with no Tyrants actually is an almost even fight as there is no PA's to go at the Sirens and Sorcs and no Tyrants to mop up wots left. but other than that its all a 1 way fight.

Prot - Tl's get get destroyed as they have no Jeeps or anything to help cover from Sirens and dragons and sorcs will jsut tear through em. PoM's fighting against dragons is pointless as nearly all teh dragons will fire nad PoM's dont do enoguh damage to stop Golems from flaking other Let's like Sorcs. wont mention Extremists cause in a 1 on 1 fight on all 3 ticks its all over after hte first tick tbh.

Thug - got Attack dogs very good HP cover but you would need ot buy a fair ammount of them to let enoguh TL's to fire to make a whole in a Magic route that it would cost you too much. Jeeps are very good but again you do need a fair few of them to flak your TL's and the dragons and Sorc's AR damage is quite good so again its going to cost you alot to flak em but it is possible to give a Magic route player a roasting with em. thief route i wont bother mentioning cause all you can really do is mass Tl's and Terr's and hooligans and Sirens tear through hte TL's and Terr's and sending flak to maybe roughly cover half the ammount of Terr's there is pretty much wstes most of The Terr's fire power on the Sirens and with all teh AR you would have against them Terr's wont do **** against your Sirens.

So - well 1 of them is mainly defensive so thats pretty much pointless hitting sirens. Puppets wont do anything as your Sirens will stop em all and the sorcs and dragons will have a field day with em expecially for the cost of puppets. SA's dont do enough AR damage, as i said above, to beat magic route as a whole.

"Rangers are the one route i could actually attack with this route and beat them convincingly. Sirens / dragons and sorcs all mean that rangers are a perfect kill target. Dragons kill rangers quite cost effectively. Robos, as you rightly said, just grind you into the dirt, which I have no problem with. Every route needs a nemesis, but this one has too many."

yeah i dont believe that tbh, unless ofc you are attackign at like 40-50% of your value then yes you would probably plough through Rangers but someone about 75%+ of your value massing rangers and your pretty much screwed as soon as that middle tick comes about.

i stick by wot i said, having shed loads of Sirens will pretty much beat any route you fight against thats between 30-100% of your value but ofc fighting someone stronger than you will be a bit harder but can pretty much hold its own against most routes roughly 120-130% of you.

 

[Shadow]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

Reply to ahead, once again useless with quoting stuff

"No offence and nothing personal but tbh I think both Turnip and I played the route better than you I'm not trying to be arrogant or give myself an ego-boost but I didn't really see you go on too many attacks or gain a lot of eff/BH etc (when there was base bounty and BH was a rank) when you played the route"

last time i played the route i was jsut outside top 10 for troop damage, top 25 for Effectiveness all round and top 5 for BH for about a month and a half and this is all while being in the top 50 for value and being like 50%+ Land fat and if you ask anyone who knwos me i NEVER attack under 70% of my value so its pretty much always an even fight troop wise and i never got any of my stats of ransk from my alliance as i was in breasticle that round( Wooooooo) and if you ask anyone we were useless when it came to doing alliance attacks also heavily lazy Also played it a few times in a PW's on my own with no Pnaps and held top 5 positions with my ratios for the route so i still dont understand why i can do it and you can't :s

"It really isn't.. I admit it does have a few strong points, but these are very limited and offset by the bad points of the route."

so does every other route so does that meant we should change all of them aswell to make them more balanced? and i still think stand by my ratio of massing Sirens to being twice as many as all your other LET's put together.

"Terrors do kill sirens fairly well as they're so weak (I'd say about 3:1 which is pretty damn good when you take costs into consideration). Also, gards won't stop your LETs from dying.. terrors target INN LET.. the terrors will just chomp up your flak and kill the same number of LETs"

Shall ask you the same thing i asked Turnip, have you actually Played the Magic route or have you jsut gone that route? cause the route is insanely strong against all routes(except Robo ofc) and to think that Terr's will kill off your lethals while you have flak there is crazy and not really true...

"Ok, let's see.. if the thug sends a few jeeps, bikers and terrors, the sirens are completely smegged, and TLs will fire (remember TLs cost 40k, terrors cost 28k and sirens cost 47.5k, and it's likely to be somebody around 200% of you hitting you so the sirens won't stop everything). Also, it's likely that the thug will be massing TLs and jeeps (general statement I know but it does happen a lot), and you can't mass sirens, that's just suicide.. you need more sorcs and dragons than sirens, so you won't have nearly enough sirens to stop TLs from firing, so you die first tick, including witches!"

Well ofc you will lose against someone 200% of your value, msot routes will lose against someone 200% of your value no matter wot route they go. and i will ask the same question again have you Played the route or just gone that route? cause Tl's and SA's are by far my favourite targets as a Siren player no matter wot units they have(except if they have jsut pure Jeeps and nothing else, if thats the case i jsut ignore them or flak them).

"I don't wanna repeat Turnip too much but he's right.. vamps really do rip you apart."

They dont rip you apart, a nice ammount of Dragons will do a good 1:2 against Vamps but you will lose the fight against Vamps and Vamps aint really going to hit a Magic player with massed Sirens anyway as they get nothing out of it as Vamps can't convert Sirens so its the vamp guy losing too many troops if there is dragons about.

"Actually SAs get closer to 2:1 against them and as you're not likely to have massed sirens (as it will leave you vulnerable to every route apart from thug really), they won't really do a huge amount. Also, the SAs have already fired, what's the point in stunning them after you've already taken the huge amounts of damage?!"

you dont mas the Sirens jsut for the SA's you do it for the Sin's and Ninja's really as Sin's can wipe out all your Sorcs AR and all your Golems leaving Ninja's to plow through you, just liek they would a Vamp player. and SA's do get close to 2:1 against Sirens but it is roughly inbetween teh 2-2.5:1 mark so roughly 2.2:1, would you agree? and even at that it costs to much to fight em with all teh other units there as every other unit bar Witches on that route has AR which is the thing SA's suck at killing.

wot i have typed is pretty much wot i typed to reply Turnip but Witches and the sirens and the route as a whole are fine the way it is and its disadvantages dont outweigh its advantages in teh slightest...

 

[vlad]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

FYI ...

Type it as follows
[q u o t e="NAME"] [/Q U O T E]

Without the spaces. And the Name being the players name you with to be named frm the quote

 

[Turnip2k]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

Shadow mate this really is going nowhere. You say the route is powerful, I say its not. We can argue all day, but we have no way of proving either person wrong.

Yes I played the route. Went into top 50 score, went down to 800 score and back up again several times. Attacked constantly all the way through at 70-100%. I was pretty active for about 40% of the round, and whilst I didnt score amazing effectiveness, I did see PLENTY of fights and have a solid grounding for my conclusions. From what I've seen, the route is fundamentally weaker than all the other routes overall. You may argue, but the fact is that many people in this thread seem to agree that it is underpowered and that is by no means a coincidence I'm sure. I am a reasonably good player, I understand game mechanics quite well and have seen my fair share of battles. I am totally convinced that magic as it stands doesnt have a place in the game as a route, it does nothing that other routes cant do equally as well or better - it is overpriced, underpowered and unnecessarily akward - in my opinion. You are welcome to argue with me, but since neither of us are ever going to have anything that will prove either person right, the only evidence we have to go on are the numbers of people that think the route is underpowered compared to those that think it is fine. From reading the thread, the former outnumber the latter.

 

[Shadow]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

but since neither of us are ever going to have anything that will prove either person right

Well thats where your wrong, i can prove you wrong and i do intend on trying to show you wot i mean when i say the route is insanely powerful. Next round yeah? i will go Sirens and use my beautiful Ratio of massed Sirens beat almost all routes(almost meaning im not fighting any robo's) and if i do that would you see what i mean when i say the route is insanely powerful?

 

[No-Dachi]

Re: Changes to Magic Route

Have you actually played the route?

Magic route is awesome the way it is. Terr's dont beat it, send a little bit of Gard's and terr's do close to no damage against lethals

How the **** does sending INN prevent Terrors from killing your lethals? That kind of flakking ended quite a few rounds ago

And, while I do believe this route needs a boost, I'd rather see Serfs changed to a NLT with the same targetting as it has now - perhaps even purely targeting NLT, with it's efficiency reduced somewhat. That would make it a worthwhile unit to get, and would enhance the route quite a bit.

For Sorcs I'd rather not make it a target NLDs as a secondary targeting - especially not if you're gonna increase it's power by 30% as well, as that would make it 30% better against protestors, which I frankly don't think they need.