• Those wishing to contribute to the game by making suggestions (both small and large) should read the following before doing so.

    Bushtarion largely runs completely automatically, and has been designed intentionally to be as self-maintaining as possible, with mechanics and balance considered at a completed point.

    Please do not spend large amounts of time coming up with complex suggestions in the hope that they will be read and possibly implemented in the future, unless you just enjoy the discussion, theory-craft, and such.

    The most likely changes will be rules-changes, specific number-tweaks to units, techs, and similar sorts of changes, and only if a large community consensus is reached as "proof" that a change would, overall, be an improvement, and are more likely to be done in batches, occassionally, not as a regular thing.

New Route: Colonial

TheNamelessWonder

Tree Surgeon
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
520
Had some time to kill, and playing Empire Total War gave me the idea, so here goes. Feel free to approve/disapprove/borrow ideas/yell at me in a foreign language.

Don't know where you'd stick it, maybe it could go as another branch in fantasy after serfs (as serfs/peasants would be relevant to the time period), or maybe shove it wherever. Anyway...

This route is a health-based route focused on ranged firepower.

All the numbers can be changed, I'm just putting some down so we have something to work with.

In keeping with combat from the time period, I want the route to be based around masses of Musketmen, with other units there to back them up. This unit should be the focal point of the route. Yell at me if it isn't, because as things stand it may well not be. Also, I'm open to moving it to a different spot in the tech tree.


Unit: Pikeman - It may be obsolete, but a pointy stick can still cause some harm.
Cost: £25,000
Targets: LET/ALL
Attacks: Close
ETA: 4
Init: 705
HP: **
AR: *
HD: *
AD: *


Unit: Musketman - As any honorable soldier would, this man marches in an orderly line and gets shot in an orderly manner.
Cost: £30,000
Targets: ALL
Attacks: All
ETA: 4
Init: 375
HP: *** (low 3*)
AR: *
HD: **
AD: * (high 1*)


Unit: Skirmisher - Taking potshots from behind trees and rocks...cowardly, but effective.
Cost: £35,000
Targets: LET/ALL
Attacks: Range/Middle
ETA: 4 {2}
Init: 325
HP: ***
AR: *
HD: ***
AD: *


Unit: Dragoon - Using the latest in 18th-century weapons technology, these soldiers deliver firepower combined with the speed of a horse.
Cost: £53,000
Targets: LET/ALL
Attacks: Range/Middle
ETA: 3
Init: 485
HP: **** (low 4*)
AR: *
HD: ***
AD: *


Unit: Cannon - There is little that can survive a massive artillery bombardment from afar...
Cost: £75,000
Targets: ALL
Attacks: Range/Middle
ETA: 5
Init: 275
HP: *
AR: ***
HD: *****
AD: ****


P-Unit: Cuirasser - The stuff of Napoleon's dreams, when these heavy cavalry charge nothing is left but hoofprints.
Cost: £58,000
Targets: LET/ALL
Attacks: Close
ETA: 5
Init: 430
HP: ****
AR: ***
HD: ****
AD: ***


Two concerns: Is the Musketman overpowered when it comes out? Guess it depends on the dev cost and speed...I want it fairly cheap and useful in large numbers throughout the round, but right now it looks like it would absolutely dominate when it comes out, even more than PB. But I'm not sure I can justify putting this dev anywhere else in the route...

Also, what can I do with the skirmisher to make it not suck? Right now it's like a crappier TL...

Discuss...?
 

Elderveld

Official Helper
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
552
Location
Arnhem
I like it, seen a fwew suggestions for knight/middel age routes. Seem pretty balanced and not overpowerd.
As for the musketman problem, i think a unit before the pikeman, as an NLD/NLT based unit, and if nessesary, it should require Engenering before...

Other than that, i like it!
 

Scorpio

Head Gardener
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
373
Location
NZ
Hmmm, you thought out a nice concept. But I can hear lots of ppl saying "There are enough routes that aren't useful and need to be changed, let's focus on those first!". Good thinking though :) I really like the names!
I don't know about your Musketman unit, but your Cannon unit concerns me a lot more and seems imba ezz-mode...

Also funny that in a br you'd have "Allied Dragoons", followed by "Allied Dragons" right after it :p
 

TheNamelessWonder

Tree Surgeon
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
520
but your Cannon unit concerns me a lot more and seems imba ezz-mode...

Well I think the vulnerability of cannons (they're about as smushy as harriers) offsets their big firepower. Also, since they target ALL (cannons weren't so accurate back in the day...) if you flak properly you can take them out. And if they're attacking you then you can always last tick. I think it's a fair tradeoff, big ranged firepower but very vulnerable...

Also funny that in a br you'd have "Allied Dragoons", followed by "Allied Dragons" right after it :p

:D
 

Scorpio

Head Gardener
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
373
Location
NZ
but your Cannon unit concerns me a lot more and seems imba ezz-mode...

Well I think the vulnerability of cannons (they're about as smushy as harriers) offsets their big firepower. Also, since they target ALL (cannons weren't so accurate back in the day...) if you flak properly you can take them out. And if they're attacking you then you can always last tick. I think it's a fair tradeoff, big ranged firepower but very vulnerable...

Also funny that in a br you'd have "Allied Dragoons", followed by "Allied Dragons" right after it :p

:D

O my bad didn't see it target all
 

Garrett

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,872
Definitely a better route suggestion than most that come through the pipe.

Here are major concerns that I see

what does this branch do? There is nothing really unique... and nothing really specific that this branch does. It honestly looks like it would be as irrelevant as the other fantasy branches which in that way it really fits.

The cannon looks like a late firing rpg (late being relative to the rpg for init), but does way more damage. I would see the armour come down a little and health go up. Ironclads? remember those? Cannon shots would tend to bounce off of rather than tear through ironclads. I know that realism isn't always the defining point but I fear the damage you want is too ambitious and that's why I bring it up.

It seems that you love AD and I don't fault you for that, but the units you propose and describe seem like anything but AD type units.

Also, with the inits you have... it looks like you were trying to 0 in on a certain unit or set of units, but you wouldn't be effective against those units. And if you didn't and were just looking for open spaces, then well there is the problem. It looks like the route would own undertech'd anyone but unless surrounded by mates in an alliance... this route looks largely ineffective against fully tech'd anyone.
 

f0xx

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
2,195
Location
Plovdiv/Bulgaria
To be honest, I like the route a lot. It is obvious you have put quite some thought in it. It doesn't look overpowered from first sight.

Those cannons look more like late firing f-117 Garrett ;)

What I am wondering is what is the purpose of this route? It doesn't seem to have one. Perhaps you can share with us what is it supposed to be strong against, because to me it seems quite weak and the last thing we need is another weak route without purpose.

And remember, when you consider a route, the most important thing is the idea behind it. Once you have the main idea, purpose, call it whatever, then building and balancing is easy. The biggest problem we currently have with the two fantasy branches is that they do not have an idea behind them.
 

Garrett

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,872
Those cannons look more like late firing f-117 Garrett ;)

bah you are just jealous I got my post in first ;)


tbh this route was a slight let down because I was hoping it was the colonials from battlestar galactica. i tried to keep my disappointment out of my original post :p
 

WildDisease

Pruner
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
62
Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've wanted this for so long :)

What about a Trebuchet :O
 

TheNamelessWonder

Tree Surgeon
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
520
Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've wanted this for so long :)

What about a Trebuchet :O

Outdated by a few centuries! :)


What I am wondering is what is the purpose of this route? It doesn't seem to have one. Perhaps you can share with us what is it supposed to be strong against, because to me it seems quite weak and the last thing we need is another weak route without purpose.

I didn't think it up with a purpose in mind, I first thought of what I wanted in units, how these troops would adapt to Bushtarion, and went from there. Figured that most troops didn't wear armor (health-based), most troops fought with guns (range/middle, except for bayonets on the muskets), muskets and cannons were pretty inaccurate (target ALL), etc. And I put all that together and tinkered where needed to make a route that I thought would be playable, and would have some strengths and weaknesses.

I think this route will be very strong against flak (cannons/muskets) and against health-based units, while being weak against armor (muskets against robots?). The strength against flak makes it a solid alliance unit. The units firing ALL will give it an advantage against PoMs (and indeed more than a few governments did fall during this era...). If done right, your cannons can clear away all the flak, leaving the muskets free to fire away on enemy LETs. However if you are attacking, the defender can always last tick you, leaving your cannons useless and vulnerable...though if you have some cuirassers they can tip the balance back in your favor. Strong health-killing units like SA and vampires will eat you for dinner, without much of a chance to fight back, since this route is very light on armor. But you can stand toe to toe with armor-eaters like strikers, and your cannons will give them something to think about. Whether you can kill them before the apaches come around though...

As for the cannons having some AD...explosive shells mebbe? :D
 
Last edited:

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,217
Location
Lappeenranta, Finland (Wolf territory)
Keep the names/stats to for example thug thif, prot VD,extremists etc. route. One less of old copy routes one more new fresh routes. Everyone wins.


Needs to get some more focuse to real purpose tho. Another thing is that doesnt this game have enought of health based health targetting routes? I see that main change should be on AR side not health.
 

Garrett

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,872
ok you said it's a terror to health based units, but you only have 2 units that do more than 1 star health.

this is what i mean about your damage ratings and needing to go back and think about what this route does because your explanation doesn't back what you originally posted.

yeah you may feel i'm being critical, but i'm not being mean. i said i liked your original concept, but surely you didn't think it would be perfect as is.
 

TheNamelessWonder

Tree Surgeon
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
520
ok you said it's a terror to health based units, but you only have 2 units that do more than 1 star health.

Read again, all of them but pikes do more than 1 star health...If you meant 2 stars, there's still 4 units that do more than that...

I do think that as it stands it is clearly pretty good anti-flak and anti-health.


yeah you may feel i'm being critical, but i'm not being mean. i said i liked your original concept, but surely you didn't think it would be perfect as is.

Surely :D
 

Garrett

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,872
you are correct sir. apparently I keep putting ad where i see hd. everything it is i think i see, becomes a tootsie roll to me.

I got stuck on AD because alot of your inits center in and around when other bots fire and that's when I put AD in place of HD because I thought the inits would make for a better bot killer.

let me reread your route, so I can clarify my thoughts but as f0xx echo'd at least one point... that still holds true.
 

CFalcon

Official Helper
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
680
Location
Kent UK
I love the colonial theme, and there are a couple of units that would be very useful in an alliance and would make an interesting new dynamic to alliance play, but I'm struggling to see what this route could actually attack by itself.
As a standalone route it seems fairly underpowered. Other than spamming cannons, which won't work against any targets with flak, the only thing that seems possible is massing skirmishers and going RPG hunting, and RPG is a route that definitely doesn't need any more enemies.
And the Cuirasser seems a little disappointing as a PUnit. That said, it could still have its uses which is more than can be said for some PUnits, but for eta 5, late firing, close only, 58k seems a bit steep. If you want to stay with realism (ie. keep them close) I'd say buff their initiative some. Cavalry don't hang about when they get up close!

As has been said, this route needs to be given a purpose, something it can target effectively. I'd say the 2 routes (PoMs aside) with the least enemies are strikers and SAs, so perhaps try and tailor it a bit towards targeting one of them? I think what you'd do best to look at to do this is the Dragoon unit. Really, they're just worse versions of the skirmisher. All the other units I can see a use for, except that one. If the Dragoon was turned either into something that can hurt SA or striker then this would be a pretty sexy route.
A health based, armour damaging unit firing in the (before apache) 300-500 init range is something the game lacks (grens just don't cut it), would be pretty cool to see. Considering when it comes out (4th tech) might also be able to help with the dominance of robots before strikers/rpgs start appearing?
Or an armour based health killer that fires before assassins. Though that sounds maybe a bit overpowered for a 4th tech unit? Can't really see how to make this balanced without covering it in bonus' (ie Vamp) or slowing its init (making it a ranger).
Or alternatively give the cannon an armour bonus against PoMs so it could actually fire against them. I don't like that so much though. Bonus' ftl.

Like I said, love the theme, really like some of the units, just sort the dragoon to give it a direction.
 

rooney

Head Gardener
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
330
Location
essex, england
Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've wanted this for so long :)

What about a Trebuchet :O

Outdated by a few centuries! :)


What I am wondering is what is the purpose of this route? It doesn't seem to have one. Perhaps you can share with us what is it supposed to be strong against, because to me it seems quite weak and the last thing we need is another weak route without purpose.

I didn't think it up with a purpose in mind, I first thought of what I wanted in units, how these troops would adapt to Bushtarion, and went from there. Figured that most troops didn't wear armor (health-based), most troops fought with guns (range/middle, except for bayonets on the muskets), muskets and cannons were pretty inaccurate (target ALL), etc. And I put all that together and tinkered where needed to make a route that I thought would be playable, and would have some strengths and weaknesses.

I think this route will be very strong against flak (cannons/muskets) and against health-based units, while being weak against armor (muskets against robots?). The strength against flak makes it a solid alliance unit. The units firing ALL will give it an advantage against PoMs (and indeed more than a few governments did fall during this era...). If done right, your cannons can clear away all the flak, leaving the muskets free to fire away on enemy LETs. However if you are attacking, the defender can always last tick you, leaving your cannons useless and vulnerable...though if you have some cuirassers they can tip the balance back in your favor. Strong health-killing units like SA and vampires will eat you for dinner, without much of a chance to fight back, since this route is very light on armor. But you can stand toe to toe with armor-eaters like strikers, and your cannons will give them something to think about. Whether you can kill them before the apaches come around though...

As for the cannons having some AD...explosive shells mebbe? :D

so what we have, is a health based route, weak on close tick, which is good against pom and flak. isnt that called thug PB???
 

Dark_Angel

Landscape Designer
Super Moderator
Community Operator
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
1,978
Location
UK
I was thinking about making a similar suggestion myself.

I *love* it :)

Other cool unit names:

"Knight"
"Paladin"
"Hand of God"?? - The unit from AoC that was mobile and very good at taking out walls (steel walls, etc) ;)
 

Dark_Angel

Landscape Designer
Super Moderator
Community Operator
Joined
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Messages
1,978
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UK
Aww :(

Still, the route would for sure have a place in my heart <3 :p
 

Turnip2k

Harvester
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
236
Location
Cambridge, UK
First, I like the route. Maybe a few tweaks to integrate it, but seems to be a good idea! Since people are complaining about the route not 'fitting into the game', I'm going to alter things quite a bit, probably badly. Bear with me :p

In terms of where this route could fit into the game, I think it should be strong against apache and undead - weak against rpg and rangers. The other routes can be slightly good or slightly weaker against this, as long as its not a huge difference.

To fit the apache killer scheme, you are going to need to have things firing in the order of like HD and AD unit (like TL's, vamps or rangers), AD then HD. This should provide a formidable enemy to apaches - the problem is making it balanced against the rest of the routes. Having a powerful HD / AD unit is going to hammer rangers, unless harriers can nail them before they fire. To this end, I would suggest making skirmishers armour based and slightly more powerful on the AD. This would also make the route good against undead.


Unit: Skirmisher - Taking potshots from behind trees and rocks...cowardly, but effective.
Cost: £40,000 maybe more?
Targets: LET/ALL
Attacks: R/M (Maybe range only?)
ETA: 4 {2} --> Perhaps remove stealth?
Init: 325
HP: *
AR: *** (or weaker?)
HD: ***
AD: **

This looks quite overpowered for the cost - maybe make it more expensive...Not sure!

Unit: Dragoon - Using the latest in 18th-century weapons technology, these soldiers deliver firepower combined with the speed of a horse.
Cost: £53,000
Targets: LET/ALL
Attacks: Range/Middle
ETA: 3
Init: 515 --> Fire after rangers
HP: **** (low 4*)
AR: *
HD: ***
AD: *

So now just stick in the AD unit firing before dragoons, preferably shooting after CW to not make them too powerful against robo - the musketman could be changed for this purpose (and also reduce dependance on EMP's for a PA counter early on)?


Unit: Musketman - As any honorable soldier would, this man marches in an orderly line and gets shot in an orderly manner.
Cost: £33,000
Targets: ALL
Attacks: LET / ALL
ETA: 4
Init: 385 --> Now after CW
HP: *** (low 3*)
AR: *
HD: *
AD: *** (high 3*)

I think this is nice for the musketman - it adds a late firing armour damage unit, which this game lacks quite badly! This is partially why apaches are so hard to kill I think, the armour damage stuff fires too early (before the HD/AD has had a chance to kill the marines + health flak).

Also, what were you thinking of doing with the :

P-Unit: Cuirasser - The stuff of Napoleon's dreams, when these heavy cavalry charge nothing is left but hoofprints.
Cost: £58,000
Targets: LET/ALL
Attacks: Close
ETA: 5
Init: 430
HP: ****
AR: ***
HD: ****
AD: ***

Seems to be a strong close firing unit, which is hard to kill. Did you intend it as a last ticking option due to the route being mainly ranged? It would still get mulched a fair bit before firing, even on last tick --> Perhaps give it the added a ability to never give insurance (and injuries) / bounty for killing / being killed. Also maybe drop it to eta 3 or even 2.

Finally,

Unit: Pikeman - It may be obsolete, but a pointy stick can still cause some harm.
Cost: £25,000
Targets: LET/ALL
Attacks: Close
ETA: 4
Init: 705
HP: **
AR: *
HD: *
AD: *

Seems pretty samey - try adding somthing unique to the unit. Maybe a hippy / guru killer? NLD / ALL? slightly more damage?
 
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