Flak Ratios & Harvester calc

CFalcon

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The key word is "minimum", not "madness".

I know you're smart enough to not need it spelling out, so don't be difficult.
 

willymchilybily

Landscape Designer
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cf surely one could argue the minimum amount you send is based on what you are aiming to achieve.

want to flak past 1m hip and 1m yob, you could send 3m gardeners and 10k geos. Or you could send 1m gardeners and 100k geos. you could plot the geo ratios vs flak ratio to beat these units. make a nice little graph and find the cheapeast way of doing it.

sure....but it becomes a nonsense when your outside of flak wars. and actually the cheapest way to get through may be to use your other units to stop certain units from firing. also the minimum to flak through not only based on geos but based on other units varies. ive sent what should get through on an attack 99% of the time. only to have the random factor go against me every now and then. so to give this bare minimum is risky, and unnecessary and is something learnt from experience. its not easy to put a figure next to or to write down for every unit in the game what that value is. i still forget from round to round what some units can do... do terrors do 1:4 or is it 1:6 on flak etc.

so using the best ratios page as the limit of a units capability is by far the best way of achieving the effect you want if you are new. or if it is the first time playing a route. once you get the experience of that route you might find you can send less. and play with your attacking ratios. but unless some one fancies whopping out a list in this thread it becomes overkill.

and finally the only real units that it will be noticably wrong for, are those that target innocents and lethals seperately. Those that target let:all and so on will, for the most part. show pretty well what the ratios they get on innocents are. And with this little bit of knowledge, you can now bare in mind the ratio may get squewed and you might get through with less flak. but its still easier just to kill the enmy units in most cases, particularly where the units specifcally target innocents..... so once again it becomes over the top needless knowledge in my opinion.
 
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CFalcon

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My point went over your head willy. Sure there are situations where you don't want to use the minimum. But there are also situations where you *do* want to use the minimum. In which case, telling people that the best possible ratio is all you will ever need, is clearly wrong.
 

willymchilybily

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My point went over your head willy. Sure there are situations where you don't want to use the minimum. But there are also situations where you *do* want to use the minimum. In which case, telling people that the best possible ratio is all you will ever need, is clearly wrong.

I guess i just agree to disagree that you will ever need specifically the ratio as fine to the wire as you can get it. For what units can do specifically on innocent flak (gardeners), or more to the point you will ever need that ratio much more accurately than what best ratios predicts and infers. Either that or you're quite right your point is going over my head, and ive quite misinterpreted.

That is to say most of the units that are on that thread, if you actually look at it and read it and check the ratios, they aren't too far out from thier actual vs flak ratios. Just those that target lethals and innocents separately bare the biggest difference.
 

antisback

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Dec 14, 2007
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I think what CF means willy is: if you're attacking you'll want to know the max ratios, and if you're defending you'll want to know the minimum ratios.

if you use the best ratio's thread for defending you'll end up losing an awful lot of land
 

Dax

Hydroponics Developer
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The simple answer to this predicament is simple: You should really learn and remember your flak ratios as you play. We've mostly been playing this a long time, and I can give pretty accurate predictions of losses/bounty/land stolen or blocked from my experiences of playing practically every route.

Don't rely on anything but what you have learned for yourself, and then even if you are wrong you have learned that what you have learned is wrong - And that you need to adjust it slightly for future reference.

Welcome to Bushtarion.
 

willymchilybily

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I think what CF means willy is: if you're attacking you'll want to know the max ratios, and if you're defending you'll want to know the minimum ratios.

if you use the best ratio's thread for defending you'll end up losing an awful lot of land

Yeah but you only need a few unit ratios for that as after flak wars it becomes more complex. From rough memory i think i use for flak wars and damaging/ stopping waves of inc.

Guru 1:5
Sd 1:5
Pom 1:10
Hippy 1:0.8
Yob 1:1.75
Sorc 1: 6 ? Guess it depends on hidden bonus,
Terror 1:6
Apprentice 1:4
Auto 1:3
Pb 1: 6
Heavy thug 1:10

Use sweepers as sweepers. Then i tweak it as i can get the ratios closer to the actual and get more desperate
Though i always think pb get higher and sorcs lower. I also put td quite low 1:20, and apache 1:13 And that only becomes applicable when you cant stop a big wave of incoming, but know theres alot of fakes. So you go for killing the flak and mid ticking to keep the lethals alive. so they cant cover so many targets next send, Using late firing high damage flak killers and oversending on the reals
 

willymchilybily

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talking about sirens before, got me interested. thought id hijack the thread. its ratio based....
I'm highly sceptical of the "health stripping" idea. I've never been able to reproduce it, and have a feeling that it was fixed on the quiet a while ago.
im trying to determin if the br is evidence to the contrary...

[range] 1,731,687 allied Psychopathic Android attacked, killing 222,673 hostile staff.
[range] 6,000,000 allied Siren sang out, freezing in place 2,008,615 hostile staff.
[range] 2,446,253 allied Hooligan attacked, disabling 2,329,348 hostile staff.
[range] 4,000,000 allied Sorcerer attacked, killing 18,002,145 hostile staff.
[range] 2,641,491 allied Cybernetic Warrior attacked, killing 7,017,211 hostile staff.
[range] 391,911 hostile Cybernetic Warrior attacked, killing 427,814 allied staff.
[range] 587,817 allied Grenadier attacked, killing 276,356 hostile staff.
[range] 625,258 allied Automoton attacked, killing 106,145 hostile staff.
[range] 294,885 allied Tyrant Drone attacked, killing 480,515 hostile staff.
[range] 115,543 allied Heavy Weapons attacked, killing 53,962 hostile staff.
[range] 26,719 allied Officer attacked, killing 5,979 hostile staff.

Stunned: 2,008,615 [£102,605,706,000] enemies stunned.
Disabled: 2,329,348 [£60,677,494,600] enemies disabled.
Died: 26,164,986 [£199,146,697,400] enemies dead


i know its hard to tell as its random robos. id estimate 1m CW, 750k TD and 3m Nano. but i think right there the hooligans gained from the sirens reducing health of the incoming, by firing after the sirens stunned a fair whack of the incoming, (just <1/2 the lethals stunned) and hoolis get around 1.6 times thier price as disables. even with flak still present.

(what I've stunned to date)

Cybernetic Warrior 243,692 = £26,806,120,000
Nanobot 3,043,985 = £127,847,370,000
Tyrant Drone 225,944 = £16,945,800,000

so at least 1.5 m nano stunned you would assume just from figures (no other lethals but tyrant, cw and nano)(pretty sure ive not stunned tyrants prior to now but may have CW) implies most of what i hit was nano. so for the hooligans, whilst still firing for the majority at the 3mil nano with 70% of its fire power, and some other flak and a few at robos with the other 30%, got a ratio of around 1.6* thier own £, in damage. seems like it did better than you would expect.

to be a bit more exact. you could assume my estimates of what was sent are correct tyrants maybe off by 50K here or there. (he split his mob 50/50) 63.15% of the lethal damage (70%) 44% of the total damage would have hit the nano, about 30% hit cheap health based flak.. the rest on tyrants and CW. and still he got damage in the region of £60bill, from 2.5mil units costing around. £37.5..

hence the 1.6x the damage as they cost. and on robo/nano/flak and from my memory ive seen them do well but i dont think that well normally. i could be mistaken of course. so if any one has some battle reports with hooligans against robo id be interested in them. but i think with that many nanos, they would normally do worse.
 

Garrett2

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I think you are better off testing hools vs nano in havoc. Hools do armour damage and you are attacking an armour route. Nanos or no - I think sirens played 0 part in the hools performance.
 

Dax

Hydroponics Developer
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Northants, UK
A wizard did it.

[range] 1 Alien Wizard cast his mighty spell, making all **** go down.
[range] 1,731,687 allied Psychopathic Android attacked, killing 222,673 hostile staff.
[range] 6,000,000 allied Siren sang out, freezing in place 2,008,615 hostile staff.
[range] 2,446,253 allied Hooligan attacked, disabling 2,329,348 hostile staff.
[range] 4,000,000 allied Sorcerer attacked, killing 18,002,145 hostile staff.
[range] 2,641,491 allied Cybernetic Warrior attacked, killing 7,017,211 hostile staff.
[range] 391,911 hostile Cybernetic Warrior attacked, killing 427,814 allied staff.
[/colour][range] 587,817 allied Grenadier attacked, killing 276,356 hostile staff.
[range] 625,258 allied Automoton attacked, killing 106,145 hostile staff.
[range] 294,885 allied Tyrant Drone attacked, killing 480,515 hostile staff.
[range] 115,543 allied Heavy Weapons attacked, killing 53,962 hostile staff.
[range] 26,719 allied Officer attacked, killing 5,979 hostile staff.
 

Joss

Pruner
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
52
Any plugins still working? with flak ratios? or has anyone flak ratios lying around? Maybe just the PoM route ones (+ hippy/yob)?

Would like to make a calc fast and add extra info on overview page.

Made myself a harvester calc from antisback's numbers like polo's nobreakspace plugin had on the overview page.

Flak ratios are much different from best ratios as you can't both calculate attack and defence with those numbers, at least not with high efficiency.
 

tobapopalos

Hydroponics Developer
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Dec 14, 2007
Messages
2,759
Location
Manchester
It's funny. You hear so much about contactability, Azzer's absence, cheating, etc. all ruining this game but imo those plugins did just as much, if not more, to damage this game.

Maybe it's just me.
 

antisback

Head Gardener
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Dec 14, 2007
Messages
429
Oh no I agree entirely, they got way too powerful and took almost all the skill out of the game
 

Joss

Pruner
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
52
Although, how can you really stop any of that from happening anyway?

It's more about the fact the game not being that much "easy fun" compared to bazzillion other games and owner giving up on the development.

As far as I'm concerned, I really like the game (not all aspects of it of course) and it had great potential. I guess I'll use Antisback's plugin when the need rises. Atm it seems I might be just fine by remembering some of the ratios instead or just relearning.
 
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