Idiots

[Dark_Angel]

Atsan is apparently fine with public scrutiny, that's his call, I merely followed procedure

And alci yes, I agree with you. Though tbh this particular individual seemed quite easily offended/dismayed

I have recently flagged up the issue of unnecessary/inappropriate responses to new/long standing members, its something the moderation team is trying to address (I wouldnt say atsans comments were inappropriate though, more random, to the point of unhelpfulness, but that's hardly criminal )

Bottom line, dw Davis, we're trying to get on top of what youre talking about.

I do think the vast majority of users with queries get very fast, good advice though.

 

[willymchilybily]

its gotto be done

its gotto be done

okay some gripe stuff is going down. as the threads are all locked im griping at something i didnt see and know nothing about but please correct me if im wrong and fill me in on the exact details

all i can read is whats posted in here http://www.bushtarion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4340 and i read people tried to help etc etc. and the guy is new and maybe even obnoxious. and im only seeing the part of the story where people are trying to be funny. and not helpful yeah yeah yeah

but for the second time im forced to completely agree with alcibiades (it kills me to do so, i'd love nothing more than to debate against him, but that said)

I do apologize for thinking that he was a helper. I was almost certain he had been one, but having been corrected for the mistake I am thus duly obligated to tell you i'm sorry atsan. So Sorry!

I do understand that Mods are not required (or obligated) to answer player queries but would you not agree that if a staff member does decide to answer, then they should do so in a constructive manner?

To say you're a moderator and not obliged to help is disgusting. This guy is clearly stressed, annoyed, and in such a hurry he quickly typed the first thing that came to his head for a name (abcdefg) probably because the name fred/george/sam or what ever his real name is was taken. A new player using mibbit entering chat for help was made fun of and left annoyed. And people have the tenacity to moan 'oh the games dying azzer doesnt do enough its all buggy, no new players'

what the hell.

To claim a forum/irc moderator is not obliged to offer help is riddiculous. a police man isnt obliged to help put out a burning house(mainly due to lack of training to do so safely), but he certaintly shouldnt stand thier laughing going 'haha your house is on fire,... did some one leave the toaster on, silly silly'. im not having a dig at atsan but at the attitude that being ranked moderator instead of helper some how negates you from any responsibility to set a good example has got to change. im not saying this example shows it, after all he probably took it the wrong way. but just that mentality really really bugs me. The 'its not my job/problem/responsibility'. You're put in a position of authority to represent azzers best interests because he trusts you to. I'd feel shamed if through my negligence and brash attempt at humour i damaged the games reputation and possibly drove away someone from the game because of said attitude.

Edit: And if you do want to hide behind this, im only a moderator veil then imo, what a moderator should have done is stopped people making fun of some one new asking for help. and warned them against it, okay in this instance he probably left too abruptly. But i hardly see it as good moderation if some one can be made fun of when asking for help.

 

[Davis]

This thread will be locked shortly as moderators don't have the backbone to take any criticism: Inb4 404

I agree with this completely, sure it may have just been "one guy", and sure it may have just been "a joke", but when someone who is trying to start playing this game and actually shows enthusiasm towards it and enough effort to come into IRC and ask for some help, he damn well better get it (unless no one is online to answer him or his question, can't be answered without some info only Azzer possess or something). People who care about this game and gripe about the dieing player base are for the most part to blame for said problem.

But more importantly people who Azzer give the title "Super Moderator", should uphold some sort of higher image. If they're so super and if they deserve such power they should be expected to show others respect and help. I'm nothing to this community I quit, and even before that most people hated me, however if i see *anyone* asking for help in irc and i can help in any way i'll be the first to do so. Do you see me being a "tree surgeon" or whatever as a requirement of helping. NO. so someone with more power and more of a image to this comunity should.

hell if i was new to this game and got smart ass remarks to a question i was obviously frustrated about, I would be pissed. Furthermore if I knew said person was a "super mod" i would assume that they are supposed to be helpers. Seeing as anyone high up within ranking in society and anywhere has more duties.
"With power comes responsibility"

lets see you uphold your title.



Edit:
Other thread was unlocked, at least atsan has some balls to be able to take some criticism

 

[Alcibiades]

It kills me too willy

I obviously agree with, and fully support, willy's post too.

@Davis: This won't get locked because mods can't take criticism, it'll get locked because the forums are not the appropriate place to vent your staff related criticisms. Although I have been known to do so before

 

[Silence]

To say you're a moderator and not obliged to help is disgusting.

Yeah how disgusting! This is the worst thing to happen ever. ZOMG.

To claim a forum/irc moderator is not obliged to offer help is riddiculous.

Yeah woah, its so 'riddiculous'

a police man isnt obliged to help put out a burning house(mainly due to lack of training to do so safely), but he certaintly shouldnt stand thier laughing going 'haha your house is on fire,... did some one leave the toaster on, silly silly'.

Noone can be liable for a pure omission. So no, even if a policeman were to stand there laughing, he would not liable. Infact, a fireman could do the same and still wouldn't be liable in negligence. There is only a positive duty to ensure that someone doesnt make the situation*worse* by a positive act.

Example fail.

More bullshit and hate

Thanks for bring this to our attention. Im sure all the staff will appreciate you applauding the work which they do for *free*.

Thanks

 

[Iamsmart]

*In fact

 

[Silence]

Sorry

Will you ever forgive me?

 

[Hobbezak]

a police man isnt obliged to help put out a burning house(mainly due to lack of training to do so safely), but he certaintly shouldnt stand thier laughing going 'haha your house is on fire,... did some one leave the toaster on, silly silly'.

Noone can be liable for a pure omission. So no, even if a policeman were to stand there laughing, he would not liable. Infact, a fireman could do the same and still wouldn't be liable in negligence. There is only a positive duty to ensure that someone doesnt make the situation*worse* by a positive act.

Example fail.

Isn't there a law in the UK making it obligated to help people in case of an emergency (e.g. if you can swim, and some little kid falls into a lake and is about to drown, aren't you legally obligated to jump in and save the kid, and are liable if he drowns, and it's proven that there was no reason for you not to save the kid)?
(Obviously without making the situation worse or putting yourself in danger)

edit: I agree with you on Willy making a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too big a deal out of something as trivial as this. To quote atsan on this: "Willy, a call from North Korea for you. They want their nuclear overreactor back".

 

[Silence]

a police man isnt obliged to help put out a burning house(mainly due to lack of training to do so safely), but he certaintly shouldnt stand thier laughing going 'haha your house is on fire,... did some one leave the toaster on, silly silly'.

Noone can be liable for a pure omission. So no, even if a policeman were to stand there laughing, he would not liable. Infact, a fireman could do the same and still wouldn't be liable in negligence. There is only a positive duty to ensure that someone doesnt make the situation*worse* by a positive act.

Example fail.

Isn't there a law in the UK making it obligated to help people in case of an emergency (e.g. if you can swim, and some little kid falls into a lake and is about to drown, aren't you legally obligated to jump in and save the kid, and are liable if he drowns, and it's proven that there was no reason for you not to save the kid)?
(Obviously without making the situation worse or putting yourself in danger)

I think that’s in French law? Where the principle is the "good Samaritan rule"? I can’t remember. Well I know its more popular on the continent.

But the English doesn't recognise that as a legal principle. If a little kid is drowning a stranger can walk on by and incur no liability. The reasoning is that the child would have drowned regardless, and that might not have been there to save him.

However this only extends to situations where there is prior relationship, if the kid drowning happens to be under your responsibility, for example, you are the parent yeah you have to do something. Or if you push them in, that creates a link.


The English rules in this circumstance are similar to the American rules, where its essentially every man for themselves.


/off topic =P

 

[atsanjose]

okay some gripe stuff is going down. as the threads are all locked im griping at something i didnt see and know nothing about but please correct me if im wrong and fill me in on the exact details

no they aren't willy,

merged

 

[Dark_Angel]

To say you're a moderator and not obliged to help is disgusting. This guy is clearly stressed, annoyed, and in such a hurry he quickly typed the first thing that came to his head for a name (abcdefg) probably because the name fred/george/sam or what ever his real name is was taken. A new player using mibbit entering chat for help was made fun of and left annoyed. And people have the tenacity to moan 'oh the games dying azzer doesnt do enough its all buggy, no new players'

what the hell.

To claim a forum/irc moderator is not obliged to offer help is riddiculous.

Most staff endeavour to help with requests for advice. I'm not an official helper but will reply to people in #Bushtarion if they want help, and I have a moment.

However if a staff member who isn't an official helper fails to respond to a query, or - indeed in this case - makes a fairly random response - They can't be penalized for that - as they didn't sign up to help new players. A lot of mods/ops don't even play the game anymore - are they expected to have a thorough knowledge of gameplay despite the fact they haven't played for an age?

This has all been blown way out of proportion. A new guy asked a question, was given what was admittedly a silly response, and rage-quit. Do we really need a discussion in gripes about an isolated case of one guy not getting the answer he wanted? (Which I strongly believe he would have if he'd have stuck around).

The vast majority of users get excellent, fast responses to their gameplay related queries. If every single one of them got that we'd have a 100% amazing customer service team. There isn't an organisation on earth with that reputation - though we do strive to ensure everyone gets a clear, quick response.

Lets stop acting like a huge number of people get very poor responses all the time - We have a fantastic group of official helpers who are a credit to this game. IRC is an informal way of getting help - "Help" can come from anyone - and is thus more likely to be the source of poor responses. That is quite difficult to tackle.

The reason we don't allow public scrutiny of the actions of staff is because of just this - People take one, very small, isolated case - and turn it into "this is typical of everything that is wrong with the game". Be realistic. It isn't.

 

[Davs]

I'm with DA on this. Although I feel mods should help if possible, they're under no obligation to as in some cases they probably can't help that much anyway. Like DA said, if they felt they were in a good position to help they'd have signed up as helpers. I can't remember the last time Markb had an ID, so I'd expect his knowledge of the game to be a bit on the rusty side, but he's still good at his job as IRC Channel Op (when he's actually online and not afk ).

 

[willymchilybily]

completely agree Da, my over-reaction wasn't meant to be aimed at the incident, or the person behind it or the event in general, clearly some guy, who ran away frustrated instead of giving it a chance because of one flippant comment. and he seems like a bit of a "billy bull ****" I was griping at the concept that you can just go, oh im a moderator not my job to help, but still it not be frowned upon when the advice/comment you do make (even though was taken in the worst possible way) leads to some one leaving before having got the help they originally wanted.

its clear to see that the guy over reacted, and atsan was just fooling around. but i think you should be more of the opinion,

"oops that didnt go well, didnt think he would react like that, my bad. note to self, dont mock people that are already agitated"

not
"meh who cares what i said, im not an official helper anyway."

Bushtarion should not be so bureaucratic that it matters what exact title the position of power holds. i wouldnt expect a forum moderator to act inappropriately in irc or an irc mod to flame in the forums. im not saying this is what happened, im saying its the attitude that it doesnt matter even if they do, that is wrong. Because a title should not matter, as you are after all very kindly helping azzer and representing the bushtarion communitys best interests, in the way you can do best, no matter what your position.

summary: gripe was aimed at the attitude not the action after all we're all human, and say/do stuff that we shouldnt, or regret. I was griping about the concept of being able to pass the buck due to a title. I'd feel the same if this incident never happened, as its almost irrelivant to what im griping about, it simply bought it to my attention that this attitude could exist.

 

[atsanjose]

not
"meh who cares what i said, im not an official helper anyway."

ehh who are you quoting hunny?

 

[willymchilybily]

not
"meh who cares what i said, im not an official helper anyway."

ehh who are you quoting hunny?

im at work so cant give an answer as clearly as i would like to but will try my best.
the quote is more of an attitude im worried may exist. but looking over exact DA quote im now more worried i may have read too much into it

Bear in mind, though, that atsan is a forum moderator - Not an official helper - and therefore has no obligation to answer player queries.

lol bear
and my opriginal meat of the argument

To claim a forum/irc moderator is not obliged to offer help is riddiculous.

poor example saying even if its not ones job to help it certainly shouldnt be okay for them to hinder, or mock another.

im not having a dig at atsan but at the attitude that being ranked moderator instead of helper some how negates you from any responsibility to set a good example has got to change. im not saying this example shows it, after all he probably took it the wrong way. but just that mentality really really bugs me. The 'its not my job/problem/responsibility'.

like i said yeah read too much into it probably. It was never said it doesnt matter what actions you take. but it seemed to skirt over the issue that even if you arent obliged to help, then you shouldnt cause another player(certainly a new one that is frustrated) to leave. it shouldnt be fine to accidently do that because somehow its not your job. and on top you should try and set the example as a moderator/helper. And you should do your best to give any help you can if you are online, and being asked directly for help with a problem, no matter what your admin title.

but yeah, not the best example as the guy took a harmless bit of banta badly because he was agitated

 

[Iamsmart]

Sorry

Will you ever forgive me?

Pondering.

 

[Alvestein]

Noone can be liable for a pure omission. So no, even if a policeman were to stand there laughing, he would not liable. Infact, a fireman could do the same and still wouldn't be liable in negligence. There is only a positive duty to ensure that someone doesnt make the situation*worse* by a positive act.

isn't that 2nd degree manslaughter?

 

[Silence]

Noone can be liable for a pure omission. So no, even if a policeman were to stand there laughing, he would not liable. Infact, a fireman could do the same and still wouldn't be liable in negligence. There is only a positive duty to ensure that someone doesnt make the situation*worse* by a positive act.

isn't that 2nd degree manslaughter?

No

 

[webvictim]

A lot of mods/ops don't even play the game anymore - are they expected to have a thorough knowledge of gameplay despite the fact they haven't played for an age?

Is this not a part of the problem? I understand that helpers still play the game and are meant to have a good knowledge of the way things work, but is having ops and mods that don't play by design or just due to history?

 

[Dark_Angel]

Mods/OPs don't require a knowledge of what is going on in game to help them make informed decisions. We make choices based on a good understanding of the rules, and ofc common sense.

One of the reasons Weeble was made community manager was because he no longer plays (afaik) - He can make calls completely impartially.

A working knowledge of gameplay in general can be helpful, but I'm fairly sure a mod/op who has never even played bush would be capable of modding/opping