• Those wishing to contribute to the game by making suggestions (both small and large) should read the following before doing so.

    Bushtarion largely runs completely automatically, and has been designed intentionally to be as self-maintaining as possible, with mechanics and balance considered at a completed point.

    Please do not spend large amounts of time coming up with complex suggestions in the hope that they will be read and possibly implemented in the future, unless you just enjoy the discussion, theory-craft, and such.

    The most likely changes will be rules-changes, specific number-tweaks to units, techs, and similar sorts of changes, and only if a large community consensus is reached as "proof" that a change would, overall, be an improvement, and are more likely to be done in batches, occassionally, not as a regular thing.

Increasing Playerbase/Targets/Interest: Legalised Multying

CFalcon

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Now I know what you're thinking, but do read before responding :p

What's a major problem with the game at present? A lack of targets, a lack of alliances and competition, and a general stagnation of ranks and play. The top alliance wins, and is forced to just sit there for the entire round, unless they want to abandon their friends and all they've worked so hard for, and ranks 2-4 are forced to batten down the hatches and play very defensively, unless they want to quit/restart and give up on what they've put so much effort into, and abandon their friends.

The result is alot of the game's most active and committed players are tied up being able to interact very little with the game.

Just from personal experience, it happens almost every round to me that I usually end up in a high-end, but non-winning alliance, and soon end up getting pretty bored of the day to day fending off rank 1 attacks, attacking players in smaller alliances with the same units week in week out, and even interacting with the same small group of players for months at a time.

The number of times I've thought I would really like to try some different/silly routes, go join some different groups, and piss around at the lower ranks, but I really don't want to abandon the people who I've worked hard with, and give up all the effort I've put into my current ID, it really makes the current system look inadequate.

But why does it have to be this way?

Because you're only allowed one ID.

And why is that the case?

Because there would be no efficient way to check for cheating (land farming, troop trading etc) if multying were allowed.

And why..... wait, hold your eggs, don't count your conclusions or jump to horses! We've just made a massive assumption here. There's no way to stop land farming and troop trading between two IDs controlled by the same account???

I have a little bit more faith in Azzer's programming skills than to say there's no way he can stop 2 IDs controlled by the same account from interacting in an illegal way.

Simply make it so 2 IDs controlled by the same account can't attack or defend each other, and can't attack or defend another ID simultaneously.
And if you really want to, make it so they can't be in the same alliance.

Suddenly, multying doesn't seem like such a crime does it? Then allow each account to have 2-3 IDs in world 1 simultaneously, et voila.

By allowing multying under these conditions, we could instantly double or treble the active player base, multiply interest in the game and the number of available targets by several factors, increase the acres floating around the game, even multiply revenue from people buying multiple PUnits, and thus multiplying possible spending on advertising.

I'm struggling to think of downsides, and the only one that I can come up with is that a well organised alliance could effectively become two or three organised alliances, which could change the shape of battles at the top quite a bit. Firstly, "if the enemy can do it, so can you" is quite a good argument in this situation. Secondly, there are a number of checks that could be put in place to prevent this. You could prevent the creation of extra IDs until ~4 weeks into the round. You could say that you are only allowed a single ID in the same alliance as someone else's account ie. if I had an ID in the same alliance as Ogluk, I wouldn't be allowed to have a different ID in a different alliance that Ogluk was also in. You could.... well you get the picture, there are plenty of ways of preventing TBA size alliances controlled by 20 people.

If anyone else can think of any flaws, I'd be interested to hear them. The number of times I've heard people say "Azzer really needs to allow multis ti revamp the game, the way the current playerbase is dwindling" is suprising. People are usually joking, because they can think of all the possible cheating that would arise if multying by itself were just allowed, with no checks and balances. But why can't it be checked and balanced, and still gain the benefits of a larger playerbase?

Benefits: many
Downsides: none, with proper balances
 

CFalcon

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My argument to this would be as follows:

Imagine GrandesCojones.

Now, imagine if GrandesCojones members all made another alliance together with their 2nd accounts.

Furthermore, imagine if GrandesCojones members all made a THIRD alliance together with their 3rd accounts.

All of a sudden you have one beasty powerblock of ranks.

You didn't read it did you.

I wrote a lengthy paragraph above explaining how this could be prevented.

Good job on only reading the thread title.

You even failed at taking in the very first line:
CFalcon said:
Now I know what you're thinking, but do read before responding
 

CFalcon

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I didn't read the original post
nub

No, I "read" it. Honest. And now I'm going to backtrack very quickly on my original post.

And it still applies. Putting in the "In an alliance with the same game ID's" would get messy.

In short -- multi's are not the answer to this problem.

Azzer needs to revive something in the mould of MPOGD again and put in a vote button. If players want more players, they should make efforts to bring them in, not create more accounts.

I think it would probably suprize you how many multi's there are in this game already.

No, it wouldn't surprise me at all. It does make you wonder why people do it at all though. Perhaps boredom/frustration with the current system?

No, your argument does not still apply, for the reasons I gave. "It looks messy" doesn't invalidate my points.

Yes, I agree this doesn't solve all our problems. Marketing and bringing in new players is important. Solving the activity problem is important. Just because this idea doesn't cure cancer doesn't mean it should be disregarded out of hand.
 

CFalcon

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Now that's better, a proper post :)

A "huge jumble of players from the top 6-8 alliances" isn't a problem in itself. You seem to be scared of the idea of the number of decent alliances getting into double figures.

However, the "conflict of interest" point you raise is an interesting one.

Firstly, the stress of playing FTW with just one ID is pretty massive, I can't imagine many would want to put in FTW effort on 2 or 3 IDs.
Secondly, the "no secondary IDs until 4 weeks in" clause quite neatly removes alot of the possible problems.
Thirdly, I appreciate that the other system I suggested (no more than 1 ID in the same alliance as another account) could end up getting rather messy as far as recruitment goes, but that was only a suggestion to highlight the point that there are ways to get around the problem of groups of 20 controlling more than 1 alliance. The 'mess' could be reduced by allowing only 1 or 2 of the same accounts to be in 2 alliances at the same time.
Also, weighing up the pros and cons, is a bit of messiness worse than the boost to game-play this change could bring?
 

CFalcon

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Whereas part of me likes the idea, it's perhaps a step in the wrong direction.

What's better?

£5 for P-Unit for 1 of the three accounts a player controls

or

£5 for P-Unit from 3 new players?

Of course from 3 new players is better. Stop trying to make it look like I'm against new players joining. But you're living in this fantasy where EITHER we allow multying OR we get new players. Ever heard of a false dichotomy? You make it sound like we have a ready supply of new players just waiting for the lack of multies to allow them to play. I would LOVE it if we had 1000 new players joining right now, and that would reduce the urgency for a suggestion such as this, but it still wouldn't render it useless. People would still enjoy the freedom to explore the game more thoroughly.

A step in the wrong direction? There isn't a line with multies at one end and more players at the other, and we must go to one end of the line or the other. Again, false dichotomy, look it up. That's a horrifically close minded way of looking at this. Why not try and do both?

A decision such as this to give more players more accounts, could potentially further reduce the chance of new players joining. Whereas you would be "limited" from hitting somebody with multiple accounts, how would it be regulated?

- Cant attack at the same time?
- Cant attack within 3 ticks of an attack ending?

In the end, if you had an arch nemesis and they attacked you full force, you might get demolished, and damage half of his army. The next day, before he can recover, you kill him with your other account.

The first part of that is a minor detail. You could make it not within 72 ticks if you are really worried about this.

Secondly, this doesn't happen now? Your arch nemesis doesn't ask his entire alliance to land train up behind him?

It just seems too much like a "get out of jail free" card. Not only that, but it would play HAVOC with spying. All alliances would HAVE to be Public to balance it out, or people could shipjump with 2 accounts to fund the intel on their main.

Firstly, like I said, first 4 weeks no secondary IDs takes away the problem of spying from the early round, which is the only time when spies can really make an impact.

Public alliances would make a difference how exactly? Have you not yet reached the spy school development?

And I like to think a little better of the majority of players than to assume they'd all become rampant spies the instant it was made a little easier for them to do so.
 

CFalcon

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And would leave the multi-situation very much like it already is.

So your point is?



[size=-5]rofl[/size]

My point is, that what you're proposing is a glorified version of what we already have, with a couple of restrictions.

People always have, and always will multi. And always, they will find ways around it.

So your point is that my suggestion doesn't bring up any problems that don't already exist?

Wow, you shot me down good.

So, now that we're agreed that the downsides are no worse than what we already have, and given that I've outlined a number of benefits (which by the way, a number of people have already say they support in IRC), the pros appear to be outweighing the cons.

Thank you for supporting the suggestion :)
 

CFalcon

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I'm in no way suggesting this happen

Stop making such excellent points for my cause then :)

Azzer would be better off making a load of "Bots" under "random names" and programming them to either join an alliance together, or be kick-ass P-Solo's XD

Awww, I was enjoying the reasoned argument bit of this thread. Why do people always fall back on unsupported claims when they're losing :(
 

CFalcon

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I'm sorry you're taking this personally :( For someone who doesn't give a damn about it, you're making an awful lot of posts though.

And yes, a debate over a suggestion can be won or lost, I think that's fair to say. Everything on the forums? No. Stop extrapolating.

But back to the suggestion.

Of the people who multi, I know for certain that at least some of them do it out of boredom, for a change, and not merely to try and gain ranks. This will allow them to do that, so can in fact be viewed as reducing the amount of cheating in game, not merely keeping the status quo as you suggest.

I'd quite like it if someone other than crimson could get involved...
 
Last edited:

Iamsmart

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No.

a well organised alliance could effectively become two or three organised alliances

That. It gives active people too much of an advantage.
 

CFalcon

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No.

a well organised alliance could effectively become two or three organised alliances

That. It gives active people too much of an advantage.

Oh dear christ, can nobody read?

I said quite clearly how that could be prevented.

Several times.

Do, all of you, try and think before posting.
 

Iamsmart

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it CAN'T be prevented

I put the can't in capital letters and bold to make sure you understood it

Think about your idea much, much longer before you flame people for intelligent posts. There are far too many variables and loopholes to try and make this idea usable.
 

CFalcon

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Secondly, there are a number of checks that could be put in place to prevent this. You could prevent the creation of extra IDs until ~4 weeks into the round. You could say that you are only allowed a single ID in the same alliance as someone else's account ie. if I had an ID in the same alliance as Ogluk, I wouldn't be allowed to have a different ID in a different alliance that Ogluk was also in. You could.... well you get the picture, there are plenty of ways of preventing TBA size alliances controlled by 20 people.

Explain to me how this would not work.

it CAN'T be prevented

Think about your idea much, much longer before you flame people for intelligent posts. There are far too many variables and loopholes to try and make this idea usable.

I've made enough suggestions on these forums and had enough of them shot down to be able to take criticism and concede when someone makes a valid point.

But "It can't work" is neither an intelligent post or a valid point.

Sorry I was a bit aggressive in that last post, tiring day, don't want this to get personal :)
 

Twigley

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By allowing multying under these conditions, we could instantly double or treble the active player base,

The ratio of active and inactive people would stay exactly the same.

multiply interest in the game and the number of available targets by several factors,

You'd have the same amount of people sending at the same amount of targets, just more ids doing it.

increase the acres floating around the game,

You would have the exact same ratio of acre:id than before.


I don't see any benifits?
 

CFalcon

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By allowing multying under these conditions, we could instantly double or treble the active player base,

The ratio of active and inactive people would stay exactly the same.

True. I could have worded that better, but I'll accept that my phrase there doesn't indicate any change to the game.

multiply interest in the game and the number of available targets by several factors,

You'd have the same amount of people sending at the same amount of targets, just more ids doing it.

You sound a little muddled there. Yes the amount of actual people would be the same, but you wouldn't have the same amount of targets.

And, oh, sorry, you're right. More ids in the game isn't a benefit at all. I dunno why people are complaining about a dwindling playerbase and lack of competition tbh. We've got all the IDs we need in the top 50.

increase the acres floating around the game,

You would have the exact same ratio of acre:id than before.

I'll concede, the ratios will be the same, although the numbers will be different. Some might see that as a benefit, but I guess it isn't really.

I don't see any benifits?

Increasing the number of available targets, and the variety and interest in game play isn't a benefit?

I don't play world of warcraft, but I'm under the impression that you're allowed to have several characters simultaneously on there? To keep up interest in the game and allow people to fully explore all the various ways of playing it? That's what I'm driving at here.
 

Twigley

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I don't play world of warcraft, but I'm under the impression that you're allowed to have several characters simultaneously on there? To keep up interest in the game and allow people to fully explore all the various ways of playing it? That's what I'm driving at here.

You can, but having one or more character in WoW doesn't change the actual mechanics of the game, as you can only play one character at once.

For me this change would only be a 'plaster over a crack' change that fabricates the truth.

And just for the record, I am for rounds being shorter than they currently are to stop boredom and keep things fresh.
 

xvi

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By allowing multying under these conditions, we could instantly double or treble the active player base,

The ratio of active and inactive people would stay exactly the same.

multiply interest in the game and the number of available targets by several factors,

You'd have the same amount of people sending at the same amount of targets, just more ids doing it.

increase the acres floating around the game,

You would have the exact same ratio of acre:id than before.


I don't see any benifits?

despite my epic distaste for Twigles, i must agree 100% here.
 

CFalcon

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I don't play world of warcraft, but I'm under the impression that you're allowed to have several characters simultaneously on there? To keep up interest in the game and allow people to fully explore all the various ways of playing it? That's what I'm driving at here.

You can, but having one or more character in WoW doesn't change the actual mechanics of the game, as you can only play one character at once.

For me this change would only be a 'plaster over a crack' change that fabricates the truth.

And just for the record, I am for rounds being shorter than they currently are to stop boredom and keep things fresh.

I rather think it doesn't change the mechanics of the game because your characters can't influence each other, not because they can't be played simultaneously. Which, again, is what I'm trying to aim towards.

And I agree, as far as creating new targets goes, this is a duct-tape and super-glue job. That said, if the crack isn't going to get fixed any time soon, then a bit of super-glue is better than nothing.

I think rounds would have to be shortened hugely to have as large an impact on interest and variety as this suggestion, and that would lead to big burn-out problems. That said, I'm also for shorted rounds, but why does it have to be either shorter rounds or this and not both?
 

damfrankie

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Dec 14, 2007
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Somehow; 90 % of posts in this thread are CFALCON responding to other peoples posts; but the posts aint there.

Overactive moderators.

C'mon guys; we have less than 400 players in game; hardly ever more than 50 peops in IRC and now the mods are killing discussions in Forums too ?
 

CrimsonFury88

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I don't play world of warcraft, but I'm under the impression that you're allowed to have several characters simultaneously on there? To keep up interest in the game and allow people to fully explore all the various ways of playing it? That's what I'm driving at here.

You can, but having one or more character in WoW doesn't change the actual mechanics of the game, as you can only play one character at once.

For me this change would only be a 'plaster over a crack' change that fabricates the truth.

And just for the record, I am for rounds being shorter than they currently are to stop boredom and keep things fresh.

This.

I think the game perhaps would be a lot more "interesting" if there were two worlds, with less ticks.

One game world, PURE-SOLO only. Every man for himself. No defending, with well tuned up AR.

One game world, as normal. Just for 20-30 days, with no dev modifier.
 
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