• Those wishing to contribute to the game by making suggestions (both small and large) should read the following before doing so.

    Bushtarion largely runs completely automatically, and has been designed intentionally to be as self-maintaining as possible, with mechanics and balance considered at a completed point.

    Please do not spend large amounts of time coming up with complex suggestions in the hope that they will be read and possibly implemented in the future, unless you just enjoy the discussion, theory-craft, and such.

    The most likely changes will be rules-changes, specific number-tweaks to units, techs, and similar sorts of changes, and only if a large community consensus is reached as "proof" that a change would, overall, be an improvement, and are more likely to be done in batches, occassionally, not as a regular thing.

Upkeep

Sweetlee

Weeder
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
17
Location
San Luis Obispo, CA
I was thinking, (and although it is probably too late to implement for age 5) that maybe there should be some sort of cost to have a huge standing army? At first I was thinking something like a development tree that allows one to have a greater value of troops per level, but I discarded this idea for upkeep. Upkeep would involve having a unit pay an amount equal to 1/2016 (or so) of its cost per tick (that value makes it so that the unit costs it's hiring cost in upkeep every 2 weeks).

The main effect this would have is to take top players with large standing armies and reduce the rate at which they pull away from the lower people. Especially in the beginning of the round, there would be more of an emphasis on development OR a giant army, which could make very balanced play possible without the development modifier (which does very little imo) or without the land stealing cap (which seems very weak to me). This effect also inherently gives a small benefit to those who get zeroed because they make more money while they rebuild their army. The question you have is "what happens when a player has no more money in the bank?" and I answer "simple, a unit dies, and his cost is used to pay the upkeep for the rest of the living units, and this continues until the player has money in the bank". This also adds a dynamic where players have to keep some cash on hand, and makes money launderers USEFUL.

Some options for extended functionality could be:
-Different rates for different classes of units, ie. LET units pay more than INN, and so on.
-Only active after reaching a certain # of developments
-Specialist units that have no upkeep or a lower amount, a little something to balance a unit that is slightly weak for it's cost
-Upkeep modifier, a percentage modifier like the AR mod, that gets chopped if you take a large hit, and increases past the normal value if your staff takes no losses for an extended period of time.

The changes being made to bushtarion for a long time now have been about keeping the game interesting for longer by trying to make it more fair. Bottom line is, I think there needs to be a definitive method to stop run away leaders, something that is more fair to both sides than experience, law&fame, exponential seed growth, injury, land cap, development modifier, and eta modifiers, all of which were designed to stop the top players from running away 1 week into the round, and have only mildly succeeded. Thank you for your time, and your criticisms (constructive or not) are appreciated.
 

Garrett

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,872
Re: Upkeep

have mulled similar ideas over in my mind. not read your post with a fine tooth comb, but I think this is an excellent topic for 'constructive' conversation.

So while not (yet?) stamping your exact post approved. I approve of the idea and would love to see discussion on it.
 

brett

Planter
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
34
Location
uk
Re: Upkeep

i think this could turn into a very good idea. It has so many bonuses such as making the money launderers useful because at the minute they dont do anything of great concern and its stressful seeing a unit go to waste because it has no advantages. I believe it would be very hard to implement this but i think it really could work and leave the fight for rank 1 leading right up to the last few ticks of the round instead of having one player a good 40 billion score ahead of the nearest rival.
 

Alcibiades

Plant Geneticist
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
4,267
Location
Canada
Re: Upkeep

I love the idea so far. Brilliant, also adds a mild realism factor in terms of 'attrition'.
 

ToY

Weeder
Joined
Dec 23, 2008
Messages
15
Re: Upkeep

I personally think this is a great idea. Could definitely take a little getting used to, I think but would be a great add-on to the game. :D
 

Ogluk

Official Helper
Community Operator
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
764
Location
Bracknell
Re: Upkeep

and will stop people sitting on some troops no funds and a ton of seeds :D

<3 it!!!!!!

the unit wouldnt die :p they'd get the sack as the company can no longer afford to keep them employed ;)
credit crunch and all that :p
 

Maxi

Head Gardener
Super Moderator
Community Operator
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
405
Re: Upkeep

It seems a nice suggestion, I like it, but the only problem is that this is a war game, and not a flakking (INN) & funds game. People will be less inclined to buy (LET) troops and having large armies- discouraging big fights or wars. Wouldn't increasing the exponential seed growth be more effective to slow down big or landfat people? (*if* we want to do this, not sure if there's a problem here) :)
 

Alcibiades

Plant Geneticist
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
4,267
Location
Canada
Re: Upkeep

Maxi said:
It seems a nice suggestion, I like it, but the only problem is that this is a war game, and not a flakking (INN) & funds game. People will be less inclined to buy (LET) troops and having large armies- discouraging big fights or wars. Wouldn't increasing the exponential seed growth be more effective to slow down big or landfat people? (*if* we want to do this, not sure if there's a problem here) :)

Higher upkeep on flak; lower it on LETs.

Make the units that aren't 'kept up' unavailable but not dead, so the troops aren't lost, just not usable until the appropriate funds are required.

Something along those lines. You may be right in that it could throw gameplay into a direction we don't intend and don't want.
 

f0xx

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
2,195
Location
Plovdiv/Bulgaria
Re: Upkeep

Mmm... I don't like the suggestion. I think it has no place in this game.

We've kept punishing the more skilled and active players and look where it has lead us to. The cost for the higher ranked people will be much bigger for those of middle/low rank because of the exponential seed growth formula. I really don't like the suggestion.

If something like this is to be implemented, then the exponential seed growth formula needs to be removed.
 

Sweetlee

Weeder
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
17
Location
San Luis Obispo, CA
Re: Upkeep

Maxi said:
It seems a nice suggestion, I like it, but the only problem is that this is a war game, and not a flakking (INN) & funds game. People will be less inclined to buy (LET) troops and having large armies- discouraging big fights or wars. Wouldn't increasing the exponential seed growth be more effective to slow down big or landfat people? (*if* we want to do this, not sure if there's a problem here) :)

I think that this change would not stagnate the playerbase, much the opposite. If you can only afford to keep up 2 weeks of production's worth of units, you HAVE to attack and you HAVE to expand your income to expand your army, you can't just keep sitting on your acres. And the thing here is not about slowing down landfat people, it's stopping those with giant armies and land from producing more than anyone else can, which creates a run-away effect early on when then limiting factor on developments is their eta rather than their cost.

f0xx said:
Mmm... I don't like the suggestion. I think it has no place in this game.

We've kept punishing the more skilled and active players and look where it has lead us to. The cost for the higher ranked people will be much bigger for those of middle/low rank because of the exponential seed growth formula. I really don't like the suggestion.

If something like this is to be implemented, then the exponential seed growth formula needs to be removed.

I don't like the idea of "punishing" active players (which is what a lot of the past additions to the game have been about), but this is meant to be fair to all. Would you say that the exponential land score formula punishes active players? No. This is something that affects everyone just like exponential land score, and makes it harder and harder to make money, not as your land increases, but as your army increases. And you're right, I don't want this in place with the exponential seed growth formula, I'm suggesting that this replace the exponential seed growth formula. I'm not trying to suggest a dynamic that solely punishes large players, this idea is meant to punish those that don't attack, don't grow, and just sit on their seeds for weeks and weeks of the round score queening.
 

f0xx

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
2,195
Location
Plovdiv/Bulgaria
Re: Upkeep

Scorequeens usually have little troops and tons of land, so your suggestion will help them even more.

It would make more sense if the suggestion was formulated like that: the more seeds you have the more upkeep you pay. Not army. People should be encouraged to have army, not the other way around.
 

Sweetlee

Weeder
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
17
Location
San Luis Obispo, CA
Re: Upkeep

I see your point, and to fully realize all the ramifications of this suggestion, we would have to see it in action. That being said, I think there is a clear advantage if you have troops and your enemy does not. Simply, it is riskier to grow faster. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't have any army at all, just that there should be a balance between your income and your army. I'd like to try it out even if it could end up going the wrong way, just because I think it will add so much more to the early game especially. Another way it could be implemented with your considerations is to have a score/land ratio, which could work as well, but then you wouldn't see any heavy decision between troops and developments.
 

ToY

Weeder
Joined
Dec 23, 2008
Messages
15
Re: Upkeep

I like the idea of it working towards your amount of seeds. You would not grow faster towards the "top" ranking players as it will effect them as well. Or maby I am not seeing this correct?
 

No-Dachi

Official Helper
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
975
Location
Oslo, Norway
Re: Upkeep

What would stop the top alliance from keeping their funds instead of spending on units? It's been done before, and the only reason it's not at the moment is that there's no tactical advantage to it. By implementing this you're giving the winning alliance an incentive to start saving again, and they will. Rank 2 however, have to have a relatively larger army compared to their acres, to cope with the incoming, hence picking the shortest straw.


Now there are another 20 alliances we have to consider of course, and I'm not fully in agreement with myself on the changes it will cause for those players. But whoever dreams of getting the top not to run away: I'm sorry, we've halted them for years, and the only thing that seemed to work to some degree was an insanely high rate of injured troops (which lead to a burnout for a lot of players). My suggestion to you is that you accept that the top will run away, and start considering how this (and other) suggestions will affect the rest of the player base.
 

Hobbezak

Garden Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
894
Location
Antwerp, Belgium
Re: Upkeep

No-Dachi said:
My suggestion to you is that you accept that the top will run away

Amen to that. :D
Anyway, why do we want wars at the top to continue longer? Wouldn't that mean insane activity levels are required for longer periods, hence faster burn-outs and more people quitting?
But then again, I've just been idling around for the last 5 rounds, so maybe I'm not into touch anymore with the current playstyle in the active world.
 

dangerdan

Digger
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
7
Re: Upkeep

No-Dachi said:
What would stop the top alliance from keeping their funds instead of spending on units? It's been done before, and the only reason it's not at the moment is that there's no tactical advantage to it. By implementing this you're giving the winning alliance an incentive to start saving again, and they will. Rank 2 however, have to have a relatively larger army compared to their acres, to cope with the incoming, hence picking the shortest straw.


Now there are another 20 alliances we have to consider of course, and I'm not fully in agreement with myself on the changes it will cause for those players. But whoever dreams of getting the top not to run away: I'm sorry, we've halted them for years, and the only thing that seemed to work to some degree was an insanely high rate of injured troops (which lead to a burnout for a lot of players). My suggestion to you is that you accept that the top will run away, and start considering how this (and other) suggestions will affect the rest of the player base.

Yep. It could easily hurt the rank 2 alliance, thus allowing the rank 1 to pull away even easier.

And the other 20 alliances, the alliances not in the hunt for the rank 1 spot, this could really hurt them and their own wars.
 

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,217
Location
Lappeenranta, Finland (Wolf territory)
Re: Upkeep

I really dont get this injure the top stuff.
I still think best rounds of bush history were those back in the day when rounds lasted 2 weeks. Those 2 weeks were very intensive carnage, massive wars and 24/7 attacks.

Nowdays rounds are more of who hast best endurance than how well people do at one crucial point... I really dont get this stop the top stuff... If some alliance kicks my alliances ass then they deserve to win. I dont need game to help me to beat my enemies. I couldnt care less if that alliance that beats mine does it the first or the last day of round. They are better and as such they shall win... So why do people want to stop others from winning? Someone must win anyways, so why to make it harder? I doubt it is more fun or anything like that. Actually faster top alliance wins and pulls off faster other alliances gets to fight from 2nd position. Unlike now when no one wants to be #2 cause of getting killed by #1.
 

Alcibiades

Plant Geneticist
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
4,267
Location
Canada
Re: Upkeep

BlackWolf I think the point of reducing/injuring the 'top' was so that the fighting could go on all round, as opposed to the first two weeks, and that settled it. While I thought it was a good idea when such things were being introduced i'm not entirely convinced that it still remains a good idea, as it contributes rather heavily to burnout imo.
 
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