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Old 02-01-2009, 12:19 PM   #61
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Yet, kodu's to no dachi forr making the best point of all. It would be the perfect post in a thread concerning the rules
the rules need change, its why this thread is a joke, people are blaming alci for following the rules.
The rules are somewhat vague the ops can simply say they implied 7,1 in the case of WD and not in the case of hobbe as they didnt see the reason fit during havoc. This caused a little uproar and its right it did, showing the rules need to be updated. It has nothing to do with irc ops, couse if you look at it neutrally, its alci whose getting loads of blame for kicking someone that asked for id's and the person getting mad over it because it's not in the rules. i'd say asking for id's should be forbidden(and a lot of people would agree with me) and if you ask it, rethorically or not, you risk a kick (and wow it takes 2 secs to rejoin).
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Old 02-01-2009, 05:02 PM   #62
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Quote:
Originally Posted by No-Dachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinpower

You have just proved once and for all that you are simply arguing for the sake of it
If person A is penalized for committing an offense, then when person B commits the same offense he must face the same reaction! If there are to be exceptions these must be clearly stated in the rulebook.

Yes that is right...BUT there is a HUGE difference between "asking for an ID" during the round and in havoc...i cant believe anyone would try and argue that its the same thing...that is why it shows BW is arguing for arguments sake
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Old 02-01-2009, 05:31 PM   #63
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinpower


Yes that is right...BUT there is a HUGE difference between "asking for an ID" during the round and in havoc...i cant believe anyone would try and argue that its the same thing...that is why it shows BW is arguing for arguments sake

Is it? How huge is it, and why is it huge? The rankings have been saved, but the world is still ticking. I can see how you can argue that the round is in effect over, but as long as the rules does not state that havoc creates an exception then the difference is not huge enough to be considered in the rules, and it is therefor per definition illegal.

If the OPs are consistent on kicking people that violates a rule, they must be consistent at all times - not only when they feel like it. Even though the majority of the player base agrees, they have to go by the rules.


Now I agree that there's a clear difference between posting IDs in havoc and during the round, but the rules we play by are not in agreement. It might be a slip, or it might be intended not to create confusion amongst new players hanging around in #Bushtarion for the first time. It can be argued that it is easier to enforce a rule that has no exceptions, both for the enforcers and the new players getting a grip of the rules without reading them.

We can argue for hours about what's the best way of writing the rules, and why, but that's not up to either of us to ultimately decide. What I am trying to bring forth here is that there needs to be consistency between what the enforcers do, and what the rules say.

We might have different ways of writing out what we mean, but I can assure you that this discussion is not about nitpicking over incidents, but on the overall and underlying principle. It has gone far beyond the intentions of the original poster, (and a mod might want to split it up) but the discussion right now is about principles, and not incidents.
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Old 02-01-2009, 07:20 PM   #64
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Quote:
Originally Posted by No-Dachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinpower


Yes that is right...BUT there is a HUGE difference between "asking for an ID" during the round and in havoc...i cant believe anyone would try and argue that its the same thing...that is why it shows BW is arguing for arguments sake

Is it? How huge is it, and why is it huge? The rankings have been saved, but the world is still ticking. I can see how you can argue that the round is in effect over, but as long as the rules does not state that havoc creates an exception then the difference is not huge enough to be considered in the rules, and it is therefor per definition illegal.

If the OPs are consistent on kicking people that violates a rule, they must be consistent at all times - not only when they feel like it. Even though the majority of the player base agrees, they have to go by the rules.


Now I agree that there's a clear difference between posting IDs in havoc and during the round, but the rules we play by are not in agreement. It might be a slip, or it might be intended not to create confusion amongst new players hanging around in #Bushtarion for the first time. It can be argued that it is easier to enforce a rule that has no exceptions, both for the enforcers and the new players getting a grip of the rules without reading them.

We can argue for hours about what's the best way of writing the rules, and why, but that's not up to either of us to ultimately decide. What I am trying to bring forth here is that there needs to be consistency between what the enforcers do, and what the rules say.

We might have different ways of writing out what we mean, but I can assure you that this discussion is not about nitpicking over incidents, but on the overall and underlying principle. It has gone far beyond the intentions of the original poster, (and a mod might want to split it up) but the discussion right now is about principles, and not incidents.
QFT. I agree with dachi about everything he has said.
I also can say in my behalf that my intention was never to accuse anyone not Hobbe not OPs of anything on personal level. To be truth no one did anything wrong. Problem is as Dachi said: "If the OPs are consistent on kicking people that violates a rule, they must be consistent at all times - not only when they feel like it. Even though the majority of the player base agrees, they have to go by the rules. "

That is why I made my post.
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Old 02-01-2009, 08:09 PM   #65
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Quote:
DachiIt can be argued that it is easier to enforce a rule that has no exceptions, both for the enforcers and the new players getting a grip of the rules without reading them.

We can argue for hours about what's the best way of writing the rules, and why, but that's not up to either of us to ultimately decide. What I am trying to bring forth here is that there needs to be consistency between what the enforcers do, and what the rules say.
And this is what I've also said all along. Thanks again babe for putting it so succinctly.
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Old 11-01-2009, 07:07 PM   #66
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Once again,
Bushtarion 0 - ViruS 1

BlackWolf and No-Dachi make the best point of all to this thread.

My goal to this thread, if you read my very first post, was not pointed at the IRC Ops entirely, but to the rules of IRC for #bushtarion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that 7.1 is necessary for some extraordinary event but NOT for the common event. There should be rules for common events and seeing as the requesting of a players ID is NOT extraordinary, there should be rules set out for it.

The biggest problem with 7.1 is that it calls upon human judgment which is NOT perfect and we therefore need clearly stated rules or procedures that sanction its use. 7.1 is as known, not a literal rule because there is no direct aim to it - it gives the operator limitless power for what "he/she sees fit" (the biggest problem of all).

What one operator sees fit usually will not be what the other finds fit.
Consistency as No-Dachi pointed out is essential.
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Old 11-01-2009, 09:02 PM   #67
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

I don't think anyone would argue the point that rules need clarification and a bit of a rework. I've seen some rough drafts of the rules for Age 5 and it looks pretty good.

[hidden:2gq34q57]The only thing I objected to was the personal nature of a venomous and spiteful attack.[/hidden:2gq34q57]
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Old 12-01-2009, 04:30 AM   #68
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

I'm just here for the sex.
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