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Old 18-12-2008, 07:16 PM   #16
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

1. Why you didnt explain that to person you kicked?
2. Why you acted towards him like the owner of the world instead of saying you are sorry?

You ever thought that with such small thing with such small words this whole thing could have been avoided? You know WD is human too, he felt offended so it is usually much better to clear things with such person and even to pologiese, even if you felt you did right thing at the moment.

Trust me, I have been referee for some 10 years now, I know how to handle people who are punished and pissed of it. Sometimes you just must let things go, or to be ready to say your sorry, you just didnt notice etc.
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Old 18-12-2008, 07:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackWolf
1. Why you didnt explain that to person you kicked?
2. Why you acted towards him like the owner of the world instead of saying you are sorry?

You ever thought that with such small thing with such small words this whole thing could have been avoided? You know WD is human too, he felt offended so it is usually much better to clear things with such person and even to pologiese, even if you felt you did right thing at the moment.

Trust me, I have been referee for some 10 years now, I know how to handle people who are punished and pissed of it. Sometimes you just must let things go, or to be ready to say your sorry, you just didnt notice etc.
You're right about one thing in your post tho; it is an unbelievably small issue, and i can hardly believe it's gotten blown this out of proportion.

The only thing I'm aware of doing wrong was that I was faster than I should've been on the kick. He broke a rule and suffered the punishment.

1: He knows exactly why he was kicked. He solicited IDs. That is not allowed. Everyone knows that.
2: I didn't act like the owner of the world. I performed my duty as required of me.

I know WD is human, and I'm sure he was a little miffed at being kicked (in fact the proof is this thread) and that too, is a perfectly human emotion. I'm not saying he isn't allowed to gripe, or be upset. But he seems to be annoyed that he was kicked with reason. If i'd banned him i'd say yes, I owe him an apology as that would be an overreaction of the highest order.

I don't feel like I should have to coddle everyone who gets a warning/kick/ban. I'm not personally holding a grudge against anyone I kick and I don't do it because I love having power. If you want the truth, I became an OP so I could regulate the bushtarion hours when most of the European Operators were not active. I'm sorry he seems to be taking this personally, but any other OP there would probably have done the same thing. Or given him a warning. Either way, as I said earlier, I (personally) believe that people who should know better deserve a harsher punishment because they are deliberately breaking the rules. Maybe it was a joke, I'm not a mind reader. Now he'll know next time not to break the rules; or to request someone's ID in a PM or just talk to them in PM about it.

Please let's avoid making this issue any bigger than it has already become.
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Yes, I'm reactionary. I react when I read bullshit on forums. It's like a reflex.
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Old 18-12-2008, 08:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

I only stated what I would have done. Asked the questions that I wondered about. I dont think that civilized discussion can ever go too far or be too big.
I think WD is on to something with his thread. Maybe not about this case but over all. I just can say what I think and I think that he made a joke yet broke the rule while making so and you kicked him bit too fast.

In the end it doesnt really matter what happend, I think what happend afterwards was the thing I wouldnt have done and that is like on many previous cases the thing what gets me uppset. I dont direct my words towards anyone personally, yet sometimes I am forced to think that some OPs are doing their job for some other reason than just for communitys well being.

I also am forced to pologiese, but I do think that if we find some flaw in the system, we should bring it up and we should discuss about it. If we just sweep everything under carpet I dont think things will ever change to better.
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Old 18-12-2008, 08:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

http://bushtarion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2204

Case closed I think.
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Originally Posted by tobapopalos View Post
Yes, I'm reactionary. I react when I read bullshit on forums. It's like a reflex.
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Old 18-12-2008, 10:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Alci why so afraid and eager to drop this convo?
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Old 18-12-2008, 10:15 PM   #21
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackWolf
Alci why so afraid and eager to drop this convo?
Because it's destructive to the playerbase and to morale of the players. I have nothing to be afraid of, but I don't think posting about this in public will get anywhere, not as it's a personal gripe. I'm happy to have the rules of IRC revised, I think they need it, or at least to be looked at, and get input from Players/OPs as to what should be done. I've posted that a few times, maybe you just missed it but it's there.

I feel my conduct is perfectly fine. I pasted that link above so that a constructive thread could be used to further the rethink of IRC rules. This thread is a gripe against myself with a vague irritation at the vagueness of the rules; the other thread is a clear cut recommendation to improve the rules.

Why are you so eager to make this your newest personal crusade?
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Originally Posted by tobapopalos View Post
Yes, I'm reactionary. I react when I read bullshit on forums. It's like a reflex.
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Old 18-12-2008, 10:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Because he's BW, and that's what he does.
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Old 18-12-2008, 10:59 PM   #23
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

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Because he's BW, and that's what he does.
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Old 18-12-2008, 11:03 PM   #24
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

I feel that the problem here lies more in the way you reacted when he responded to the kick, than actually kicking. I sincerely believe that in this case it should be enough with a warning, and I also propose that in the Bushtarion OPs Handbook is added a paragraph about reading the context before taking action. I vaguely remember Bobbin kicking someone for stating a four digit number in response to a question that had nothing to do with bush whatsoever. In both cases the kicking could have been avoided had the OP taken the time to read the context.

As BlackWolf, I too feel offended if kicked without a reason. I don't know by, but I deem it rude, and therefore I take offense when kicked randomly. I feel that warnings should be issued at a more frequent rate, and especially in joke-like cases like this one.

But as I said, had this been the case of a kick, and either an apology, or an humble explanation of not really paying attention, and guiding him to the rules I do not think this would have blown up like it has (though I do not agree that it is out of proportion). I personally think that if the response would not have been as arrogant, nor had used 5.2 as a fallback, basically stating that "whatever you say you're wrong, because I can kick you at will no matter what", the player in question would have accepted it and moved on.


As stated, I feel that this situation could've been handled better; particularly the response. However, this is more about how OPs handle situations, than you as an OP; using this particularly situation as an example.


And way to go to make it sound like it's a bad thing to care, TheNameless.
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Old 18-12-2008, 11:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

He asked for the rule which allowed me to kick him for requesting an ID. As there isn't one, as we have all stated, I used the only one (legally) available to me from the IRC rules. In this particular instance, since there was no relevant rule; I used the only one I could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcibiades
Now as the best and brightest will notice, this does not in fact prohibit you from asking for IDs. As i've also stated above, everyone knows that you cannot do this. WildDisease, with your 21 rounds of knowledge, surely you would know this. I only used the (infamous) 7.1 Rule, because there is no rule that prevents people from asking for IDs. If there was a rule preventing people from asking for IDs, I would have used that rule. Would you be complaining in that circumstance?
I could have been clearer in explaining that to be sure; but it's pretty self evident. Next time when I 'punish' someone I will explain to them fully and completely their faulty behaviour, why I kicked them, what they are being punished for and direct them to the relevant rule.

Is that acceptable?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobapopalos View Post
Yes, I'm reactionary. I react when I read bullshit on forums. It's like a reflex.
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Old 18-12-2008, 11:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Alci relax please! You are taking this all way too personally.
Yes WD made this thread about you, but since then not me or not Dachi have meant it personally. We see things in another picture. We think of "what we would feel if this would have happend to us" in comparison to "What if we would be in alcis shoes".

We agree that WD made a mistake, and we think that you acted pretty harshly.
But that is not our point.

We dont inspect things as individuals but of what happend and what has and could happen in future. So we try to think ways to improve how things could work. I pologiese now to you if you felt offended by my posts, I personally think that you followed the rules and you did exactly what rules told you to do. I just dont think that is what I would have done or what I think was the right thing to do.

I wish you can understand that small difference. We are not on a manhunt here. We have seen some cases in the past and we are kinda "fed up" with those. So we would like to ensure in the future that no one must face things like this again. (I count both sides to this, that no person will break rules and that no one will be kicked of something like this)

Things are not black and white. Like some people have ensisted things should be viewed independently, according to that idea I see belongs that everyone is responsible of their own actions. That also includes oblication to explain why something was done. Only referring to some "rule" that states there are no rules (has happend to me so many times I have even lost the count). I just cant see how that is improving the commnity and friendlyness in it.

I again say I am humbly sorry for you Alci if you feel offended. I still think both made mistake, one by "breaking" the rules and one by acting bit too rapidly and then referring to such rule. I would divide blame 50/50 if it would be up to me. So no one would feel offended I actually would call this misunderstanding. Yet I do think we are here on something bit bigger than just what happend between WD and Alci and that is the thing we should talk about. Not trying to find who is quilty and to what on this particular case.
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Old 18-12-2008, 11:49 PM   #27
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

i think you guys are pretty pathetic fussing about these things

both partys
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Old 18-12-2008, 11:52 PM   #28
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

What partys? Man I trie my best not to take sides and I get divided to parties
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Old 19-12-2008, 04:29 AM   #29
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

Hell BlackWolf, for once i'm inclined to agree with you, to some degree anyways.

I am willing to admit that No-Dachi and yourself didn't really have it out to get me so let's consider that one solved. But WD left a pretty personal attack on me which was, well frankly, uncalled for, insulting and rude. You ask me to consider WD's feelings, well think of mine. I'm an OP who has long been irritated with the inconsistency of Operators and with many of the same complaints you find yourself involved in; and one who tries to be as fair as possible. Then to have this, for lack of a better word, petty complaint thrown into my face is beyond insulting. We are all human, and people make mistakes. Yes he made a mistake asking for IDs, and it's possible I made one by kicking him (although i still stand by my action for kicking; i realize that a more reasoned explanation could have helped the situation). However, the crude personal attacks on me are unnnecessary. WD could have achieved his purpose by doing exactly what Nameless did and posted a thread requesting a change of IRC rules, or a clarification without being so vociferously personal.

He gets mad at me for doing my job, and then complains that other OPs don't do their jobs. Settle on an opinion my friend, either accept that some of us try very hard and occasionally make mistakes; or prefer OPs who do nothing. Personally, I'm vastly more supportive of human operators who can make mistakes than someone who is completely unrepentant and doesn't do anything. No sense in naming names but we all know how it goes....

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackWolf
I pologiese now to you if you felt offended by my posts, I personally think that you followed the rules and you did exactly what rules told you to do. I just dont think that is what I would have done or what I think was the right thing to do.
Apology accepted. That makes me feel good to hear. I was very offended by many of the posts in this thread as I strive very hard to be a good OP and it is very, very insulting to have myself compared to others when (in your opinion) all I did was a little mistake. Let us remember that on both sides of this equation there are humans, human beings who err, make mistakes and are both convinced they are in the right.

I didn't initially understand that you believed I did what was right by the rules and that I followed the rules to the letter. I thought you were annoyed at my behaviour in general. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion and thus you have my apologies for the misunderstanding.

This is the source of frustration for me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildDisease
This term has been referred to countless times by the IRC operator which either means the ops (more like just Alcibiades) are not properly doing their job
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildDisease
all of the ops are rather USELESS and do not do a thing because they are never around. Alci, Bobbin and Markb are about the only ones who actively do their job.
So first I'm not doing my job, and then i'm one of three who does it? Come now sir, make up your mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildDisease
(that personally, disgusts me, hence my disrespect shown to fellow operator, Alcin00b)
Those phrases were both beyond unnecessary. Get me to agree to your point, or want me to apologize by insulting me, surely that's the best way to go about it.

As I have posted numerous times, both before and after I became an OP, i feel that the current staff needs a big ole cleansing and that the IRC rules (more recently i agree) need to be reviewed and perhaps altered. As I said in another thread, the problem is with the Operators, not with the rules in general, apart from the shocking lapse of not having one prohibiting solicitation of IDs under any circumstances. Any sort of general thread I probably would have accepted, discussed in, and gone along with with the minimum of fuss. As it stands, personal attacks aren't really very useful, constructive or interesting.

To answer No-Dachi as it relates to warnings: I have never seen a warning have any effect in #bushtarion. I've been on the receiving and the issuing end, and quite frankly it doesn't really accomplish squat. Kicks have far more effect as it forces the player (or 'victim' if you prefer) to think, at least temporarily, about their actions. Especially for older players... people who should know better.

Anyways, if he really feels that hard done by, then he can consider he has my apologies for being overly swift on the kick button. If I apologize to him, I expect an apology in return for the unnecessarily rude, venomous and pointed attacks at an OP who tries, very hard, to be just. Apologies are a two way street....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobapopalos View Post
Yes, I'm reactionary. I react when I read bullshit on forums. It's like a reflex.
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Old 20-12-2008, 02:55 AM   #30
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Default Re: @Azzer - IRC Op abuse of power

In respond to Alci (as I am not ready to let this whole thing go), I agree with you!
You showd balls to admit here that you acted bit too rapidly. I would expect WD to show some balls too and to pologiese.

I am also happy to see that you have understood what I/some of us was/were after. I think you already have improved the way you are being an OP on #bushtarion. (I am one vouching alci to be op in the future too, I know him well enought to say he has learned of this and will not make same mistake again. This alone gives me enought reason to trust him with such responsibility.) I also agree with Alci on the way how WD responded to Alcis actions, I think WD has went way too far and if it would be up to me he would deserve more than just irc kick.

Yet in the end I think we stil shouldnt forget about this topic. I know it may hurt alcis name, yet I think in the end we should have possibility to discuss about these recent happenings on some place where it is not a change to system, yet I see it more as change to perspective of OPs.

You see I dont think there is wrong about our current OPs, I more think the problem is in the system. I know our OPs and I like everyone of them (well maybe but one ). I just think they have been put to situation where their actions are in a way limited, and they have caused certain expectations above themselves with past actions. This all has lead us to a system where from stupidity and joking you can be punished more than from intentional ruining of others enjoyment of play. By this I mean more the way this "rule" thing works, as restriction of OPs instead of being the restricting of players.

Actually players dont even read these rules than after being warned or kicked. Same way old OPs have put limitations so high on certain actions that it is very cruel to follow those. I personally see that IRC should be adapted to be part of ingame system and if you deserve a ban in IRC it would include game too. (not nesessary by ops, yet reported to Azzer etc.). This would lead to system where behaving and giving bans would be thought by all sides bit more closely and behaving would be more a actual benefit than just the situation where you are less bored.
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